This week we have another story of resilience! Nicole is here, and is kind enough and brave enough to share her story about experiencing postpartum depression and psychosis. So many things happen without being talked about openly, and Nicole is here to change that. Jen and Hilary go through Nicole's journey with her through the months and years after her first two children. Remember that you are not alone, and there is always help. Resources and hotline below.
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Nicole: And I immediately put this baby in my mother's arms. And went inside and she knew in that moment what I thought; like she just knew.
Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen.
Hilary: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast. We are excited to have you guys with us today. We have a special guest. This sweet individual is one of our colleagues here at the office. And so, we get to see her a lot, but this is her first time here on our podcast, so we’re excited that she has come to share her story with us. This is our stories of resiliency segment that we have which helps us as a community and as individuals to understand what resiliency is, but also to understand how to overcome and continue thriving even through tough situations that we deal with. So, I am going to officially welcome Nicole, Nicole Izatt, to our podcast and I'm going to turn it over to her and let her tell us a little bit about who she is. And then go ahead and tell us a little bit about your story.
Nicole: Okay, awesome. Thanks Hilary. I suddenly got very nervous, so I'm glad I'm doing it with you guys. My name is Nicole. I have worked at The Family Place, I'm pretty new, just about a month and I’m in the Parents as Teachers program. I'm so excited to be here. I love The Family Place. I was gonna do anything to get into The Family Place, so I searched a long time to make sure I could get a job here and I'm just thrilled to be here. So I am from Ontario, Canada, originally, born and raised. I have three daughters, Grace who is going to be turning 13 soon, Emi or Emilyn, but she hates Emilyn, so we call her Emi. She just turned 10. And then my Finley is almost 8, next month she'll be 8. And they're all very spicy and sassy and Spencer says they get it from me. But I, yeah, they do get it from me. I'm not gonna refute it. My husband is from Star Valley, Wyoming. That's Spencer and he served his mission in Ontario, and that's how we met. And he started emailing my dad after he went home from his mission. And my dad said, I don't know how to work e-mail. This was probably 2005ish. And my dad didn't know how to type very well and was not tech savvy and said you take over for me. You know, you read the emails you write back as me. So, we did that for about a year. And then I noticed in the emails Spencer would ask more and more about me, and finally I was like, this is me. It's always been me. It's never been Randy. Then we had a long-distance relationship and were engaged for two years long distance. When we got married, I married him under the condition that we would always live in Canada. I love Canada and he said that was fine. He would immigrate and I was working three jobs and going to school full time. And it was, as you can imagine, very stressful, very hard to do that. And Spencer said, I can't watch you do this anymore. He couldn't work because he was immigrating, right? So, he was like, I can't watch you kill yourself. Like, this is crazy. So, let's move back to the states. I can get a better paying job and we'll live there. And I said OK, see you later. We hadn't even been married a year yet. And I'm very strong willed. I was going to say I was very strong willed, but I still AM. And he left and I said Ohh you'll realize your mistake and you'll come back. But after six months I finally decided, OK, I'll go too. So, we moved to Wyoming. Wyoming was way too cold. And then we moved down to Heriman. And then, I kind of feel like Goldilocks now that I'm like, saying this out loud, like this is too hot. This is too cold. This is just right. Heriman was too busy. And then so we moved to Logan the first chance that we could and it's just right here. So that's kind of my back story. Yeah.
Hilary: Well, we're glad that you made it here after all those many, many times. Is there any hope that you'll go back to Canada?
Nicole: Yes, one day, I'm hoping, even if it's like to retire. You know, one day I'll get back there.
Hilary: Yes, well, and just your story in and of itself, I'm thinking like going to school, working three jobs, long distance relationship. I'm like, right there. We could have a whole podcast associated with.
Nicole: Oh yeah. Like if you ever need me back, I've got immigration stories I've got, you know, I've got a lot.
Hilary: So, I'm like, ooh, we're off to a good start here. But what we're gonna focus in on for our segment today is your experience with your girls and your postpartum depression. So, it sounds like you experienced that with two out of the three of your kids, is that right?
Nicole: I did, yeah. I experienced it with the 1st and 2nd. So, it's a miracle I got to the third.
Hilary: So, I guess, pre children, did you know what it was? Were you aware or did it kind of sneak in unknowingly with that first one?
Nicole: Well, I'll be candid here. Growing up, I never wanted kids. I never felt like that was in the cards for me. I wanted a career. I just didn't see it happening for me. I didn't really have, you know. I'm sure you've experienced like growing up and teenagers are like, Oh my gosh, babies, I love them. Like I want to babysit them.
Jen: I'm going to have all my names picked up prior to meeting the guy.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Like I liked it, but it wasn't. It wasn't my happy place. I love babysitting my cousins and seeing them, but I was like, I would love to be an aunt. I don't really want my own kids. Somewhere along the lines that obviously changed. When I got married, I was like, yeah, I could see wanting kids. But I would say there wasn't like a huge maternal pull for me my whole life. So no, to answer your question, I knew what postpartum depression was to a degree, but not like what it was going to be for me. You know what I mean? I knew what depression was. I was already predisposed to that. I had that as a teenager. But what it was gonna be with my hormones out of whack, I had no idea. I had no idea what it was going to be like. My mom's a psychiatric nurse. But, you know, with client confidentiality, I didn't really hear a ton. So, yeah. So she was a good resource during that time but, no, I had no idea how extreme it could be.
Jen: Probably hard though, because she's in Canada. You're in Wyoming or Logan when you're having your first baby and she's not here to see you having physical signs and seeing the behaviors that come along with it. So, that had to be hard.
Nicole: Yeah, it was hard. And thankfully, well, I don't know if it's thankfully or unthankfully, but after I had Grace, my oldest; so that was when we were in Herriman and we lived on a third floor and my postpartum depression kicked in almost immediately. So my mom and dad came after we had her and they stayed for a few weeks to help. And I remember being out on the balcony, and it was summer, and I was holding this little baby all swaddled and my mom and I were outside just enjoying air. And I remember holding Grace and just thinking, I wonder what would happen if I dropped her and I immediately put this baby in my mother's arms and went inside and she knew in that moment what I thought, like she just knew. And she came inside and she said you need to go to the doctor. And I said what? No, I don't. I'm OK. She's like, I could see your thought bubbles. Like, I don't think that's what she actually said. But like, I know what you were thinking. And we need to get you to a doctor. Obviously very strong willed. I was like, I'm fine. That was just a weird invasive thought. And like, I don't actually want to drop her. That is not. I don't want to do that. I know I don't. And I wouldn't. But it was just weird. Like I remember that thought so vividly and so, she finally convinced me to go to the doctor. And I was still trying to nurse at the time, which was going horribly wrong. It was not going well. I was getting mastitis. I just felt so pressured into “breast as best”. And it was not best for us. And I was really giving it a go and the medication that the doctor needed to put me on, I wasn't able to do that. So I was like, OK, I'll just pump and dump and we'll just feed her formula until I'm better. Silly me. I thought it would be better really quick and I just have to pump and dump for maybe a month. That was not the case. So, Grace had colic and never, ever, ever slept. And my parents went home and I remember I was so sleep deprived already, like within the first month that I was starting to lose it. I wasn't able to differentiate reality from not reality. And I think it was the day after my mom went home. Grace was crying and I couldn't get her to stop. And I kept thinking, when is this kid's parents coming to get her? It wasn't a normal thought process and I finally called my mom to complain. These parents have not showed up and I have this baby and I can't sleep. And I'm so tired. And she said you're her mom. And I was like. Ohh no. I don't know what to do. Who left me with this child like this was not planned out very well. So there was that. And my mom I know, was very worried. And then I started having what I thought were visions. This is really hard for me to talk about because I feel like there's such a stigma. And you feel crazy, even like 13 years later talking about it is really hard because I felt and feel like that wasn't me. And it wasn't me. My brain was hijacked from hormones, and it wasn't me before, and it's not me now. I started having visions because and I believe that's what they were because of my religious upbringing. So I thought my hallucinations were visions. And it would always happen at night. A little boy would always appear at the side of my bed because I was so exhausted. I was so exhausted, so depressed, so overwhelmed. And that is the trifecta of having this happen apparently. I didn't find out until years later that this is what I experienced. I always thought for a very long time I had visions and I thought that's so crazy that that's happening to me. It was this little boy and he would say I really wanna come to your family. I was probably like, oh, I wasn't even like 3 months postpartum, and I remember Spencer saying to me, who were you talking to last night? And it was like Spencer, this is going to sound crazy, but you have to hear me out. And I told him about this little boy, who wants to join our family and we have to get pregnant. And he was like. No. So I was not taking my medicine at this point. I didn't feel like it was helping. This was obviously my depression talking and the hallucinations talking that I didn't need my medicine. It wasn't doing anything. So, I had gone off my depression meds, which made it so much worse. And yeah, I just remember Spencer like, not really saying a ton, but looking at me like I was crazy, yeah. And I remember that look so vividly, like, when I would say things about how I was feeling, about the visions I was having. I remember how he would look at me and it wasn't even like. like he was wanting to make fun of me, he just looked sad. Like he looked like I don't know what to do for you and loss because this is the person that he loves. This is his wife and he is very concerned about her daughter too. And so he started leaving for work. He had a very flexible job, kind of. As long as he got everything done, he could just do it whenever. So he would start leaving for work at, like, 2-3 in the morning so that I wasn't alone all day with Grace. And we also moved to a 1st floor apartment because everyone was so concerned. We did that before my parents left. Immediately, my mom went into like crisis mode like we we're figuring this out. If something does happen, we need to have you in a safe place. So that had happened, but Spencer would hide any sharp objects. I remember trying to cut something like a cucumber or something and I was like, where are the knives? Like what is happening? And I didn't even realize I was that bad, that he was that concerned, that he needed to hide stuff. So it was really intense after Grace, I had no idea that it could be that bad. So yeah.
Jen: So, after your second baby, you had postpartum again. Were you more prepared the second time?
Nicole: Well, I think I told you yesterday that I had postpartum for quite a while. The hallucinations didn't continue for a long time. Those were kind of, once Grace started sleeping, those kind of went away. So, but I look back and I'm like, I was depressed for a very long time. I almost don't even remember the first year of her life because I was so foggy and depressed. And you would never know it. Like you look at pictures, you would meet me at church or you meet me, you know, for a play date; you would never know. We talked about masking this week at work. And I was like, I wear a very good mask. And I have created and crafted this amazing mask that I can just put on and make everyone feel comfortable, but I am uncomfortable. So you would have no idea that I needed help. And then, so, I was depressed for a while and then got pregnant. I think there was a few months that went by and that's when I was like, let's do it again. Let's have a second baby. I also wanted them closer in age, so I got pregnant again and I had Emi. And at this point, we're in Logan now. I had Emi. I was a little bit more prepared knowing how bad it could be. And Emi was due in February, which I already get seasonal depression, so I was a little bit more aware. So, but my darling little Emi had purple cry. Which, if anyone's listening and they don't know, a purple cry, look it up. It's not fun. They just for no reason, just cry and cry and cry. And it's not like a cute little oh, my gosh, she's hungry cry. It is like the screams of 1000 deaths, like it was awful. So my husband and I tag team that as much as we could, but Spencer was in school and needed to sleep too. And yeah, it was really rough. And Grace was a very difficult toddler. And was needing behavioral services and speech services. So we were in the up to three program thankfully. This is how it all kind of turned around for me I think. With Grace I didn't have anyone coming in. I didn't. Nobody knew what I was going through. There were very few select people who knew how bad I was actually suffering. But I wasn't able to hide it because I had up to three coming into my home and seeing how I was not OK. That was a really good thing for me because I had a case worker there, so she handles like we were getting all these services from different people and she would have to come in every few months to make sure that all the things are going well. How do I feel this is going and? And Emi would do her purple cry from like 7:00 PM to one or two in the morning every night. Like clockwork. And then she would also do it in the afternoon, too. It wasn't as long. But it happened every day and that is when the caseworker showed up and he started crying. And immediately I just lost it. I started bawling. I could not handle this cry anymore and I was feeling depressed. It wasn't as bad as Grace, I just felt depressed. Like I didn't want to die, but I also, this sounds crazy, but I would think if I just got into an accident, I could go to the hospital for a couple days and sleep. That's all I wanted. I just wanted to break, so my thought process, like if you're hearing that sentence and you're thinking that doesn't make sense. It didn't make sense for me either. So there was a lot of like thoughts that I knew I wasn't OK and then the case worker saw that I wasn't OK and she, I remember, she said, let's get you some help. Once I finally calmed down and she took Emi for me. And said, let's get you some help. And I thought that meant they were gonna take my kids away. I was just not in a good state and I immediately felt offensive and she said let's just get a social worker on your caseload and she'll just come and just make sure that everything's OK. Someone to talk to. I was so apprehensive. I fought her on that. I was like, I don't need it. I'm fine. This will be fine. She was insisting. I was like I went through, like, are you gonna take away my kids? And are you thinking that they're like in danger or I'm a bad parent or something? And she was like, no, just someone to come be with you. So, I agreed to it and it was the sweetest lady. I don't even remember her name. But she would come once a week and she would come sit on my couch. And she said hand me the baby. So, I would hand her Emi and she would say get out of this house. You and Grace go for a walk. So Grace and I would bundle up because it was still winter and we would go for a walk around our block a couple times just to get outside to have some fresh air, to be away from the crying. And she also told me about The Family Place. And she said if you ever feel like you're going to shake this baby or you're going to lose it just in any way. Just take them to The Family Place, they'll take them and you can go have a minute to yourself. And I thought that there's no way that, that this organization is just gonna take my kids and just for free like, this is just, this is a thing, I had no idea. And just knowing that that was there, in case I needed it, gave me so much peace and comfort. All I have to do is get them across town and drop them off. I know that's in my back pocket if I'm ever to the point that I can't take care of them, that they're not safe in my in my presence, because I'm just so over stimulated and so depressed. So that was great.
Hilary: So, man, OK. Amazing story first of all. So many, so many layers, so many components of it. Thank you. Thank you for sharing it that’s so helpful I think for so many people who are listening that are like I have been in that same boat or I have had those thoughts and I thought I was crazy. And this is so validating for them to realize, I'm not crazy. And so I think this is so helpful to be able to hear. You've gone through kind of this process, your journey, and it sounds like you've already shared some insight as to what resources you were able to use to receive the help that you need, but in addition to some of these, we'll call them angels in your life, who were there at the right time and the right place, anything else that you were able to do for yourself to help through this process?
Nicole: MHM. First I had to tell Spencer. Not to look at me the way that he was looking at me. That was the most, I don't wanna say damaging, but like it was so hard to want to be open and honest with people in my life knowing how they would react and seeing their face because people don't react, people don't usually say, Oh my gosh, you're crazy. They say it with their face and they're trying to hide their face. But you know, you could see it. And I had told a few people in my life like Spencer's sister. Especially when I was struggling with Grace, I told her because she was a mom and I didn't have, you know, a ton of people in my life. That were parents. Cuz I was so young when I had Grace, so I told my sister-in-law. She didn't say anything. But she told me with her face what she was thinking, and same with Spencer. So we had to have a really hard conversation about like hey, don't do that. You need to change your face, if you need to say something, say it. Practice in the mirror if you have to. Like practice me telling you the most horrible thing you can possibly think of in the mirror. Say it to yourself, and then figure out how to have your face. Figure out what to say. And yeah, so that that was a big thing that I had to do and I went to the doctor after Emi. I knew that I had to get on some medication, and thankfully, after Emi, I knew that breastfeeding was not gonna work for me. So, when I went to the hospital to deliver her, I said to the nurses, you need to put on that board that I will not be breastfeeding and they were like, well, you can wait and fill it out. And I was like, Nope, this will not be happening. I've already made decision. I'm good with it. Please put it on the board so that nobody else asks me. Because that was awful. Like having that pressure on myself. This is one thing I can let go of. It's gone. So they put it on the board. She will not be breastfeeding. Do not ask her about it. So I could go on medication and not worry about the side effects that it would have on Emi. So that was a good resource for me to advocate for myself. And also having my husband on the same page to advocate for me if needs be. And then I went to my family doctor because when we moved to Logan we actually got a family doctor, because we weren't in Herriman really long enough that we had one. So we had this amazing doctor and I felt very comfortable with him and I went to him and told him those pretty sure I had depression and he, like, went through a checklist with me and said, yep, you definitely have it. So, he put me on medicine. I don't remember what it was. It was one of the SSRIs and I had terrible side effects it was not going well for me. Like everything tasted like metal and I didn't feel like I was experiencing the benefits of it and I was having all the side effects of it. So I went back. Which was huge. I would in the past be like this doesn't work, so I'm not doing it.
Jen: And I'm not going back.
Nicole: Yeah, but I went back. And he put me on a different one. Same thing. So I went back again and I said I really need something that is going to work. Let's figure this out. I think I had to go back a couple more times to find the right medicine. And that is key. If you're listening and you have depression and you are on the fence about medicine like I am not a medication person. If I can, like I always say to my husband because he's always like, well, did you take Tylenol and like, if my body is telling me something, then I have to listen and I'm not going to block it, but this, take the medicine. Just take it and if it doesn't work and you're not feeling the benefits of it, it's probably just not working with your brain chemistry. Go back. There are different avenues that they can go down. I can't do SSRI's. We found this out. Doesn't work for me. So we go down the different the other avenue like Wellbutrin and I can't remember the medicine that I took, but we finally figured it out and I felt better after about six months. I was, I felt like I can see color again. I can see a light at the end of the tunnel. And I feel more like myself. So those are the biggest things and I think just being honest with the people in your life. It's hard to talk about, but it's important. I feel like when I started talking about it, it took depressions power away from it.
Jen: It's powerful, I think. And so important to talk about it, but also your process of going through and finding the right medication, because that can be a really long time because like we need to have you on it for two or three weeks to see if it figures out, you know balances out. And so that's a whole process. And then to get on your last one. And wait six months to feel better again. Boy.
Nicole: Well, I would say from the time I started trying to figure out medicine. I would say I felt better after a couple months on the right medicine, so it wasn't super long on when I found the right one. But it took a while to find the right one, so perseverance with that.
Hilary: You know, through these episodes of resiliency, that tends to be a question that we ask a lot is you know, what did you find helped you through this journey? And oftentimes we get our common answers are finding that support system, potentially going through therapeutic services or medication if you feel like that's the right path for you. But I think the most powerful thing about your story is that aspect of being an advocate for yourself. And I think we tend to forget that, how important it is to speak up on behalf of you and how you feel and your best interest. And you did that so well, through the delivery process with your daughter, with your loved ones, with the doctor and I think man, we forget that so often. Because when we're caught in that moment and life feels like a blur, I think the last thing our instinct tells us to do is speak up for yourself, usually continue to muddle through your day. And so, I think that's so important for people to understand is that you know you better than anyone else. And so being able to be an advocate on behalf of yourself, that's really powerful.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jen: Also along those lines of just having the thoughts or what not to override the negative thought process that's going on inside your head. Because that's the real thing, all that negative talk and being able to say nay, nay. I'm going to go back and I'm going to do this again because lots of us would have said, OK, it didn't work the first time. I'm going to suck it up. This is something I just got to live through. And I think mothers, really that is our Achilles heel. If something's going wrong we're like, I gotta suck it up. I got other kids, so I'm gonna
Nicole: be the martyr here.
Jen: Hmm.
Nicole: Yeah, but we don't need to do that. And that's not healthy for our children to see either. They think we need to show them, like it's important to take care of yourself.
Hilary: Mm-hmm.
Nicole: Like I hate this adage, but like you always hear on an airplane, you put the mask on yourself first before you do it for your child or someone else. And it really is true, you have to do that for yourself. It is the most important thing that your child can see from you, I think. That's my opinion.
Jen: Absolutely, I think. Just, I mean, kids soak up everything that we do and that is an amazing thing to soak up of, it is OK and it's necessary to take care of yourself.
Nicole: Right. And I would go to the doctor. And I would go get treat, that was my outing. Like I'm going to do this for me, I am going to also extend my time a little bit, and I gotta get back to my family. But I'm gonna go get a pop or I'm gonna go get, like, whatever candy from the store and. I was, you know, I looked forward to going to the doctor. But then I also decided that I didn't want to be alone in this. I didn't want to suffer alone and in silence. Because I noticed a lot of times if I did share, with my friends, how I was feeling a little bit. They were like, oh, me too. A lot of people say ohh, you have baby Blues. Sometimes you have baby Blues. But a lot of times you have postpartum depression. And I felt very validated sharing it. So I was like, I wonder who else needs this? So I posted it on Facebook. This is what I've been going through. I sugar coated a lot, but that's OK and you guys, the floods of messages that I received from other people in my life, or people that I went to school with years ago saying thank you so much for sharing. I'm going through this too. What have you found that's helpful. And that's why I wanted to talk about this today because I shared that like 10 years ago and I still get messages from people, friends that I've had for years and they'll still come to me if they're struggling and say, hey, I know you went through this. Can I talk to you? Yeah. So, I think it's really important. And it really just takes the power away from it and brings it back to you. So absolutely.
Hilary: We're just talking about this, Jen and I, at one of our previous podcasts about that idea of being the one. That there are so many people that have similar feelings and we're just waiting for that one person who is brave enough and strong enough to speak up. And then you realize once that person can do that, that you are not alone. That like you said, there are masses and masses of people that are like, yes, I am living that same life. I'm going through that same experience. But it takes that one person that's willing to stand up and speak up and, you know, be brave because it's hard. It's hard to put yourself on, you know, put yourself in that light and yeah and you know that vulnerability. But I think so many times with topics like this with postpartum and mental health and miscarriage and loss and grief. You know, the more that we are willing to be vocal about it, the more that we realize that we are not alone. There are so many people that are struggling with this.
Nicole: Well, and it's just part of the human experience, like these things happen. And why aren't we talking about them more, especially in a community of mothers. Like, these are just things that happen. Let's take the shame away from it. Not every moment of having a baby is going to be joyful. Not every moment of having a toddler is gonna be joyful. Yes, we can enjoy moments. But we do not have to enjoy every moment and that is OK and we don't have to live this lie that we are always supposed to enjoy every moment of our life because that is just not true and being a parent is hard.
Jen: I remember long time ago when Oprah had her own show and she I can't even remember what kind of guests she had on, but they were talking about motherhood, and I remember the lady saying I love my children, but I don't like them right now. Having her say that that's OK. That she did not like her kids in that moment and have other women in the audience say. Yeah, I don't like my kids either sometimes. But I think it's powerful. Let people know it's OK to say those things.
Nicole: And I think that's what we're trying to teach our children, too. We wouldn't expect them to be happy every moment of their life. We don't expect that of other people, even other adults. Why do we expect that of ourselves. We all have things.
Jen: It's that perfection thing that goes on, I think, especially with moms. Yeah, thinking we need to be perfect to be able to have a consistent home, an easy running home. No one's angry. No one's this. Yeah, Instagram, Facebook Family that we're trying to live up to which is a lie.
Nicole: Yeah, it is.
Hilary: So we always like to ask as we kind of close up our podcast for today. How are you doing now?
Nicole: I'm doing so well now. I've been in therapy for years. I will probably always be in therapy, not just because of postpartum depression, but we have touched on that a little bit. That's how I found out, actually, that what I experienced was postpartum psychosis. But I've been in therapy and like people will say I go to the gym for my therapy, I go to therapy for my therapy. I love therapy. I love my therapist. I can never get a new one ever, because we're in deep already. I could never recap everything for anyone else. But I do love going to the gym. I have found out that I love group fitness classes and that is not therapy, but that is healthy for my body and I found out that I love moving my body. And so yeah, I'm doing well. My kids are growing like crazy. They're my oldest is taller than me now, which isn't hard. I'm only 5, two and then yeah, they're just getting so big. And she was so upset that she's a decade old now. And obviously I had my third baby and I got to experience what it was like to just enjoy that baby, which was amazing. I remember saying to Spencer, I didn't know that this is what some people feel after having a baby. They just enjoy it. Yeah. So I loved that experience of, I got to go out with a bang. I had a really easy third and she is the sassiest of them all now, and I love it. She's great. She says the funniest things. So we're doing well and I've got a really good job and a really good boss.
Jen: Well, thank you so much Nicole, for coming and talking with us about postpartum depression. And hopefully we're trying to take that stigma away that, you know, mental health illnesses or crises are bad to talk about. We really need to be discussing it more often. So, thank you for being brave and sharing your story with us. We'd like to thank our listeners for coming today and listening, and hopefully this resonates with you that yes, it is OK to talk about it and yes, things can get better. If you have a topic that you would like for Hilary and I to discuss, let us know. And we hope that you have a great day and we'll see you back here next week. So be patient and kind with yourself.
Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook, Jen Daly - The Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is thefamilyplaceutah.org if you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes, we'd love to see you there.
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