Dating and relationships are fun and exciting but it is also important look be aware of healthy and unhealthy relationship characteristics. Kaleena Anderson helps us know how to recognize the red flags of an unhealthy relationship.
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Jen: Hello and welcome to the Parents Place, a podcast put out by the Family Place for parents to develop skills that will strengthen families and provide tools that will help each of us in our parenting efforts. No matter our skills, we can always use reminders that help us work towards a safer, happier home. I'm your host. Jennifer Daly, the education director at the Family Place and my co-host is Sara Hendricks, a family educator at the Family Place. Every week, we will interview professionals that will provide valuable information that will make a difference when you apply it directly to your life. Thank you for joining us. Now, let's get started with today's episode.
Jen: Hello and welcome to the Parents Place podcast. I'm your host, Jen Daly,
Sara: And I'm your co-host Sara Hendricks.
Jen: We hope you had a wonderful Valentine's Day and it was full of love. Today we have an amazing guest that is going to give us some great information on how to avoid an unhealthy relationship. Her name is Kaleena Anderson, and I'll let her introduce herself.
Kaleena: Hello, Sara and Jen! I'm excited to be here today! I am Kaleena Anderson. I'm a family life educator with USC extension in an initiative called Healthy Relationships Utah. And I have a job that I absolutely love because I get to talk to people every day about how to build and strengthen healthy relationships with healthy relationships. Utah. We really have tried to target any type of relationship, so we have classes about smart dating, which is what we're going to be talking about today. The title of the class is actually “How to avoid falling for a jerk or jerkett”. We also have classes for married or long term committed couples called couple links. We also have classes for parenting, for step families, for dads, all different types of relationships. And those classes are offered throughout the state of Utah. I have been married to my husband for 15 years. I would not say that I necessarily followed my own advice that we're going to be talking about in dating my husband. But I was really lucky to find a guy who is definitely not a jerk, and we have been very happy for those 15 years. We also have four children ranging in age from two to 10 years old, so that's a little bit about me. I graduated from Utah State with a bachelor's degree in psychology and have been a family life educator for the last 12 years, teaching all of these various classes along with some others.
Sara: Well, welcome, Kaleena. We're super excited to have you here. A little fun fact. Kaleena is actually my sister in law and I am married to her brother. So, we before starting recording this episode, we've been reminiscing and catching up because with COVID, we don't get to see each other as much and it's been a lot of fun. So, I'm super excited to do this episode with Kaleena and her knowledge and expertise. I'm excited to dive more into that on this topic because I too feel really lucky in my relationship with my husband, and I don't feel like I have a lot of knowledge and experience in this topic. So, let's just jump right in with our first question. Why are some early warning signs of an unhealthy relationship?
Kaleena: So as far as an unhealthy relationship, I would say there are some key warning signs that you can kind of be aware of in terms of your own perception of the relationship. So first off, I would say if in your relationship, if you feel like you are doing things against your conscience or doing things that you feel like, you have to hide from other people, doing things that are kind of out of character for you, or if you experience a lot of extreme emotions like sadness or depression or anger, fear, things like that. I always say that I think for the most part, dating relationships should be a lot of fun. It should be a time to get to know your partner. It should be a time to get to know yourself better. And so, if most of the things you're dealing with in your relationship are negative or really distressing to you, I think that could be a sign of an unhealthy relationship or if you feel like most of what you're doing is dealing with conflict in your relationship. Then sometimes I think that that's just a case of, Hey, this isn't a great fit. So maybe we should move on to a different relationship instead. And then one more that I think is really big to keep in mind is if the people who love you warn you about that person. We know that in dating relationships, a lot of times we have like blinders on in terms of who this person is, and they've done studies where they've found that the parts of our brain that are like rational or logical, those thinking parts of our brain really aren't working the same way in a dating relationship as they would be on a regular basis. So oftentimes, I think people, when they're in an unhealthy relationship, they'll look at their partner and they'll say the reason that my friends and my family are trying to warn me about this person is because they don't really know them as well as I do. When actually the opposite is often the case. Your friends and family and other people, they may have a more clear picture of your partner than even you do. So, I think that's. One of the big ones to keep in mind is if other people are trying to warn you about them, then you really want to pay attention to that and at least put a lot of thought into the things that they're trying to tell you.
Jen: I really can't believe the fact that your brain doesn't work effectively just because you're dating. That just seems crazy!
Kaleena: I actually think the opposite because a lot of times when I hear that, I think that makes so much sense for why you know, why so-and-so was dating this person. And I always thought to myself, What do they see in them? What do these feel? But I'm not saying right?
Sara: It's those rose-colored glasses
Jen: It is such an important time to have your brain completely thinking. And here it is, off in La La Land and not really paying attention to a really important decision that we're making within our lives.
Kaleena: But I also contrast that with marriage, relationships or long-term relationships. And do you think that's sometimes helpful in a long-term relationship that we can view our partner with rose colored glasses? Because if we were always being very logical and rational with the people in our household, then I think a lot of times we would judge them a lot more harshly than we even already do. That's the only reason that I could think that that would be helpful. That's kind of the conclusion that I've come to is maybe it's good that romantic love suppresses some of that neural activity going on in our brain.
Jen: Well, I guess if it worked properly all the time, we wouldn't have any successful marriages. So just a crazy thought. So, once I start dating, someone or someone starts dating and they realize that they have fallen for a jerk, should they stay or should they try to change them?
Kaleena: So, when we talk about change and thinking about changing another person, I think it's important to understand how change works and a model for the steps that it takes to make a change. And so usually with most changes, well, with all changes, the first step that would have to take place is that a person needs to have insight or self-awareness. But you need to recognize that there's something going on that is a problem. And sometimes when we talk about a jerk or a difficult partner, sometimes that's the problem is that that person may be lacking in that insight or self-awareness. And so, someone who doesn't recognize that they have a problem is probably not going to want or be willing to change that problem. Right? I call it the Michael Scott factor. If you think of the TV show The Office, think of Michael Scott's and I'm going to ask Sara, describe Michael Scott to me. Just a few words. Tell me about his personality.
Sara: Oh man, I'm being put on the spot. And now I'm not sure what to say. I think he is unaware of his behaviors and how he treats other people and how it comes off, I don’t know.
Kaleena: Exactly! So that's that's why I call it the Michael Scott factor, because a lot of us are familiar with Michael Scott. We know who he is and how he acts. And you're exactly right. But he does things all the time that are really inappropriate. He's very sexist. He's very racist, and he does things that make people uncomfortable. But if someone tries to challenge him on that, he always will come up with an excuse for it. He says that he's funnier than other people are, or they didn't understand the joke or or they're being too sensitive, things like that. And so, he is someone who is lacking in that insight and self-awareness. So that's kind of the first step to making a change, right? And we can't really force that on another person. I mean, you can tell somebody all day long that they have a problem. But until they recognize that for themselves, they're probably not going to want to change it. Then after that insight comes the desire or the motivation to change. And again, I cannot make somebody else have the desire to make a change for themselves. And then some of the other things that it takes to make a change, like having a plan and coming up with new information, creating goals, putting forth the work and effort, some of those things as a partner, you can help your partner with, but you can't do the work for them.
And so, with this question of do I need to leave someone when I realize they're a jerk or can I help them change? I would say that when we get into a relationship planning on trying to change our partner, or sometimes people will think I'm going to retrain my. Partner, for example, if my boyfriend doesn't open the door for me, it's fine because once we get married, I'm going to tell him about how important that is to me and that I really would like to see that happen in our relationship. Well, that's fine. You can say that, but it's still their choice, whether they want to make that change or not. So, I would say whatever the problem is, you need to decide would I still be willing to be with them even if this problem never changed? And if it's something that's really going to be problematic in your relationship or something that's going to make you a less healthy person by being with them, then I would definitely think twice before deciding to stay in a relationship with someone, even if I knew that they had significant problems.
Sara: Do you feel like the things that you're willing to put up with while you're dating with that kind of thought that once we're married, it'll be different, that really whatever you're putting up with while you're dating is just going to continue during marriage?
Kaleena: Yeah, yeah. One thing that we spend some time talking about in our classes is that the way a person treats you in a dating relationship is usually better, if not the same as how they treat you in a marriage relationship. And we talk about what are some of the reasons that that happens, because if I ask the question, will a person treat you the same in a marriage relationship is how they treat you in a dating relationship. When I ask that question, I have a lot of people with the opinion that it's kind of this big game and that people are purposely trying to trick another person so that they'll be in a relationship with them. I don't really think that's the case. I think sometimes that may be happening, but more often, even in healthy relationships. I would say that dating helps to facilitate being able to be on your best behavior. So, for my husband and I, a lot of the stuff we did when we were dating was really fun stuff that we would go to basketball games or we would play volleyball or we'd go swimming or we'd watch movies, things like that. But how hard is it to be on your best behavior when you're doing those kinds of things, whereas in a marriage relationship? I hate to tell you, but most days we're not just out doing fun stuff all the time. But more of our relationship is about trying to help to parent our children together when they're misbehaving or when one of us is sick, or when we need to go grocery shopping, or we need to deal with bills or, you know, things like that, just the everyday regular struggles of being in our marriage relationship. So, it's a lot harder to always be on your best behavior. And then it's just natural that when we meet someone new for the first time, especially if it's someone that we're interested in, obviously we're going to try to put our best foot forward. Obviously, we're going to try to only show the best characteristics about ourselves.
Sara: Yeah. So that totally makes sense what you're saying. That when we're dating, we're putting our best foot forward and maybe not highlighting or flaws or kind of keeping those things to ourselves. But once we're married or in a long-term relationship, it's much harder to hide those things and it's just who we are. You know that it naturally is within our relationship that we can't just keep those things tucked away anymore. So that makes perfect sense what you're saying. And I think that this idea that we can put up with it while we're dating, but once we're married, it'll change. And I'll be sure to voice how that makes me feel or whatever is probably not likely that we're going to follow through on that or that changes are going to be made. If dating years are really when we're going above and beyond and then marriage is when it starts to get more relaxed in our relationship and how we treat each other.
Kaleena: Yeah, I always say marriage in and of itself does not fix problems. In fact, oftentimes it magnifies them.
Jen: John and I were talking the other night. He says, “Do you remember when your mom asked you if you married the same person you dated or are you married to the same person you dated?” And I was lucky enough to say yes, because I just think about when we were dating and we pretty much showed our true selves then. And it's the same now. I mean, we're very much alike and we're like, Kaleena, she went out and did lots of stuff. John and I stayed home, and we're very much both homebodies and so grateful that I saw that prior, and it's still that way now. So, are there things I would like to change? Absolutely. But I know that I love him anyways, and there's just things you just have to accept sometimes.
Kaleena: Yeah. So, a few things that I think you highlighted that are important part of what you talked about, I think comes from life experience. Where John had been in a relationship before. I think he recognized the importance of really just being totally yourself in a relationship. I have people that come to my classes now that have been divorced before, and they'll say going on a date with me now is taking my kids grocery shopping. Because if you're going to be in a relationship with me, you've got to know what it's like to go grocery shopping with my kids. So, part of it, I think, is you were smart in the way that you dated to make sure that you really got to know who the other person really was, rather than just all the best parts of life. Also, some important steps that anybody could take in a relationship is making sure that when we're in a dating relationship, we really slow down the pace of our relationship. One of the easiest ways to get involved with the jerk is by just going too fast that we see so often on TV and in movies that people fall in love at first sight, which sounds really romantic. But when we talk about that, our brain isn't operating the same way when we're in a romantic relationship. Think about how much you actually know about a person that very first day that you would meet them or that love at first sight idea. So, in our classes, we talk about what's called the 90-day probation period and the 90-day probation period states that it takes about three months to start to get to know a person, to start to see patterns in a person's behavior. And so, one of the things that we really talk about in our classes is making sure that we're not becoming overly committed within that first 90 days and that we're not engaging in high levels of intimate touch within that first 90 days that we're not overly dependent on that person within the first 90 days. Things like that that can help us to have a little bit more clear judgment and give ourselves that time to really slow down, to get to know this person and then decide, do I really want to be in a relationship with them? Is this someone that I would like to fall in love with instead of just being swept up in emotion? And then a few years down the road, realizing the person that I fell in love with is different than who this person really is.
Sara: I'm really glad that you mentioned already some examples of date ideas to help us get to know that person that we're dating. Can you give us some more ideas of activities to do with someone in the first few dates or in that first 90 days as you were talking about where we can really get to know them and know who they are and what kind of person they are?
Kaleena: So, I don't have specific ideas per se, I will just tell you kind of three principles that we focus on in our information is that we we focus on the three T’s of getting to know a person. The three ts are Talk plus Togetherness plus Time that those are the things that it really takes to get to know a person. We already talked about time in terms of 90 days. They've also found that people who date for at least two years have close to half the divorce rate of those who date for less than two years. So, you can see the importance of really spending a good amount of time to get to know a person, but also in terms of what would be some good date ideas if we think about those other two elements of talk and togetherness. When we talk about togetherness, we're talking about doing different kinds of activities and things that bring out different types of personality, characteristics or qualities. So, some people will go on a date such as dinner and a movie, which is fine. But if you think about how much are you able to talk and how much are you really interacting together during that type of a date versus something that would maybe be something like going bowling or something like that, that you have more opportunities to really talk and be together? Another part of that togetherness is I think it's good to see each other with other people as well as just being with the two of us, because sometimes if you're just with one person, that's again when you can kind of put on your best face. But if you're around other people, you can see how my partner reacts when the server spills a drink on them, or how my partner reacts when they're stuck in rush hour traffic. Or, you know, things like that when they're interacting with other people, when they're in different types of situations, rather than just always doing the same kinds of things over and over again that don't really encourage a lot of that talk and togetherness.
Sara: So, I love those three T’s that you're talking about talk, togetherness and time, and that you need all three of those to really grasp the success of that relationship. And I. Is thinking about my own personal experience with dating my husband, and we had a long distance relationship, we met in one state but lived in two other states, and so our whole relationship was pretty much long distance. And so, it made it possible to have a lot of talking and time spent on the phone as we built that relationship and we didn't have a lot of togetherness in person. But when we did, we made the most of it and had to really dive into that dating because we knew that it was only the weekend that we were going to be together passes every opportunity when you're living in the same state that you get to spend together.
Jen: Agreed. Even if you're in the same state, sometimes you don't get to see him. John and I lived an hour and a half away from each other, so every time we did get together, it was, you know, we had to make the time, make sure that we had that drive time and then making sure that we made the time that we were together count. So, communication is a huge thing, and I think it becomes this word that we just say and we're like, Yeah, yeah, communication's important, but it is super important the more we can sit and talk and spend that time and be honest with one another. The easier is going to be in my perspective of solving issues and coming up with compromises if we've already practiced pretty much both good healthy communication skills with each other.
Kaleena: And I think especially in the world that we live in now, that talk and togetherness is so important because we're seeing more and more relationships that are happening online or through social media. And that is one aspect of talk. But we all know that talking face to face is different than the way that we filter ourselves through text or social media and then togetherness. We mean actually interacting together, not sitting side by side on your phones. That's not togetherness,
Jen: Those darn phones they get in the way all the time. So, some people might be asking themselves, why do they keep ending up with jerks? Are they doing something wrong? Is there something they can do differently? So, what do you think about that?
Kaleena: So, I would I hesitate to say they're doing something wrong, but there are three areas to kind of consider when we're looking at this. Why do I keep ending up with a jerk? And the first one is we'd like to see that sometimes we only see what we want to see. And again, I have an example for this, and I called Sara out last time, so I'll call Jen out this time. I want us to think about the Disney fairy tale classic Cinderella. And Jen, I want you to tell me about Cinderella. Just tell me, not the storyline. I'm talking about her as a person. Tell me anything you can think about who Cinderella is.
Jen: Well, she likes to clean, she's pretty. She's alone. She's seems really sweet.
Kaleena: Yes. Yeah. So, if you look at Cinderella, I would say that she's beautiful. If you look at her growing up years, she's had a really rough time and a really hard family background. She's being raised by her wicked stepmother and her evil stepsisters. She's treated like a slave, but it seems like in spite of it all, she seems pretty optimistic and she seems pretty sweet and positive.
Jen: Interesting that, because it is true, she was treated pretty much like a slave. And here I am. She looks like she likes to work,
Kaleena: But that she is just trying to find the best, even in the life that she's been given. Hmm. Hey, Sara, so you're not totally off the hook. So, tell me about the prince. What do you know about the prince?
Sara: Do we know anything about the Prince? He's just searching for somebody to marry?
Kaleena: Right, exactly. So, yeah, basically, all we know about the prince is that he's a prince, which there's a little bit we know about him. Just based on that. He's probably had everything he's ever wanted. He may have servants himself. And at this point in his life, he's being forced to be married right, by his dad, and his dad says, we'll bring all the beautiful girls in the land and you pick the one that you want. Right? So now if we if you look at Cinderella and the Prince, how long do they know each other before they're in love? At first sight, they dance one song, right? And so, what do you think the prince is seeing in Cinderella? Her beauty, her beauty? And you get the sense that he thinks that she's different than the other girls, right? What do you think Cinderella is seeing in the Prince?
Sara: Royalty! He's a prince. He knows everything
Kaleena: Yeah. So, do you think she could be seeing a way out? She's had a pretty rotten life, right, and now all of a sudden, here's this prince that's interested in her. I mean, he treated her well for an entire dance, so obviously she's going to fall in love with them. So that's a really extreme example, but I think sometimes we do that. We only focus on the things that we want to see about the other person rather than us. On the outside, we can tell you that Cinderella and the Prince together would probably not work out to be a happily ever after. Just looking at their personalities and their backgrounds, etc. So that's one area that sometimes people struggle with. Then also oftentimes there are people who are looking for love instead of getting your act together. So, it's but I just want to find my happily ever after. I just want to find somebody who will love me and who will take me as I am. Instead of looking at, maybe there are some things that I need to work on about myself and not seeing that that person is a jerk. But studies have shown us that we attract consistent to our character. And so instead of looking for the right person, it's important to make sure that I am the right person. I'm the person that I want to be before being in a relationship. And then also, there are sometimes people who get into this mentality of it's always been this way and it always will. And so, because of that, they for whatever reason, it seems that they are comfortable with a dysfunctional type of relationship, even if they would never say that or consciously recognize it themselves. Sometimes there are people who, after they've been in an unhealthy relationship, they start to think, Well, that's all there is out there. So, I might as well just settle for this type of relationship, things like that where I would say that, that that's absolutely not the case, that there are people out there who could be a much better fit for that person rather than just settling for. It's always been this way, and it always will.
Jen: There's a lot of great information in there and a lot of take homes. And really, I just think sometimes we have to take a really hard look at ourselves and see if that's what we want to put out there because of the fact that we are going to attract what we put out. And it just gives a lot of food for thought. And maybe I should have taken, you know, John as a great person, but I would have had a lot more information going in. It's nothing about him. It's just what could I have done to make myself a better match, even though I know he loves me, no matter what and things like that. I mean, there could have been things I could have done differently.
Sara: That is what I grasped, as well as internalizing it and what can I do? And it made me think about my husband that he and I actually have quite a bit of an age gap between us, and he really struggled that he was as old as he was and still not married. And advice that was given to him was that he needs to be the right person before he can meet the right person. And then after he was given that advice and started working on that, he met me. And so, it's just a really incredible piece of advice that we need to be working on ourselves and making sure that we are the right person for whoever it is that we're dating.
Kaleena: I felt like in my dating experience, I felt like the times that I was really looking for someone to be in a relationship. I don't know. Maybe you send off like desperate vibes or something like that versus the times in my life when I was just living my life and enjoying the things that I was doing. I think the self-confidence that I had in trying to be the type of person that I want wanted to be was a lot more attractive than when I was like the desperate wallflower, just waiting for someone to pay attention to me.
Jen: Maybe there's desperation hormones.
Sara: Well, Kaleena, you have truly edified us in this topic. I'm wondering, are there any resources that you can share with our listeners?
Kaleena: So first off, I'll just direct you to our website for healthyrelationshipsutah.org, especially in the virtual world that we live in right now. Most of our classes are being offered online to all people throughout the state of Utah, and all of our classes will be posted there. The information that I've been sharing today, for the most part, comes from our class called how to avoid falling for a jerk or jerk-et. And that information was written by a man named Dr. John Barnett and his website. If you would like more information about him or his resources, his website is LoveThinks.com, and you can also follow them on Instagram. His daughter is working with him. Her name is Dr. Morgan Cutlett, and her Instagram feed is “my love think”. So even if you are not in the state of Utah, you. Look for those types of resources. And also, I would just say that our programs are offered through Utah State University extension. Every state in the United States has an extension university and so extension programs are offered in every state. They may not be the exact same ones as healthy relationships Utah, but they may possibly have other relationship type courses or even other helpful resources. The resources offered by extensions sometimes are really amazing how many things they're able to provide. So, I would just direct people to any of those awesome resources.
Sara: Perfect. So, all of those resources are also linked in the show notes for easy access for you to check those out. Thank you so much, Kaleena, for joining us. You have shared a wealth of knowledge. It's been such a pleasure and so fun to talk more about this topic. If you have any questions or need to reach either Jenner myself, please email us at parents at the Family Place Utah dot org. You can also find us on Facebook. Jen Daily Dash. The family plays Sara Hendricks, Dash, the Family Place. And now for our listeners, we challenge you to apply those “three T’s” that Kaleena and had talked about talk, togetherness and time. Focus on those three things and see how it helps strengthen your relationship.
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