Pat Roos is on our podcast today talking about her Story of Resilience. This is a sad story of how her son died of an overdose. Pat shares with us his story as well as how she has been able to be resilient in surviving her son and how she has been able to turn grief into action.
Pat is also a Professor Emerita of Sociology at Rutgers University, has devoted her career to the study and research of work, gender, inequalities, stratification, work/family dynamics, and addiction.
She retired in July of 2020. In May, 2024, Rutgers University Press published her book about grief and resilience: Surviving Alex: A Mother's Story of Love, Loss, and Addiction.
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Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hillary and Jen.
Hilary: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast today. We are so grateful that you are all here and that you are listening to this particular episode. You will realize real quickly that I am flying solo when it comes to this guest position. Jen is not able to be with us today. We will miss her. But I am not alone. Because I have a special guest with me today, this is Pat. And I am so grateful that she is here. I know a little bit about her story so far, but from what I know, I know that this is going to be an incredibly helpful and insightful episode for you to listen to. So Pat, thank you for being here. I'm going to turn the time over to you and to. So that you can tell us a little bit about who you are.
Pat: Sure. So my name is Pat Roos and I was a retired from Rutgers University, Department of Sociology. And I was there for 30 plus years. And if you don't know it, that's in New Jersey. So that's really where Alex grew up. And it's nice to be retired, but since I retired, we, my husband and I moved to Washington, DC and I love being near the kind of center of activism and hope that now that my book is published, I can move forward into activism. So let me tell you a little bit about my story. The reason why I'm on the podcast is because I just published a book called Surviving. If it was video, I could show it to you, it's, but the book is called Surviving Alex; A mother's story of Love, Loss and Addiction, and it was published May 17th. Just this past month by Rutgers University Press and you can get it anywhere that you get books, as they all say. Now it's like it details a story. When I tell people I publish a book, everybody is very excited. What's your book about what's your book about? And I always have to preface it by saying it's a sad story. It's a sad story, but it's also a story that I think demonstrates resiliency. And I think resiliency is something that we talk about a lot today that Hilary has asked me to talk about my story. So let me start at the beginning and the beginning of the story is that we had a very what I call in the book, a very good family, a very normal family, probably much like many of the families of those of you listening. And you know, we did all those things that families do. You know, we had a backyard that opened up into our neighbors had, were the kids that were kind of there's there was a kind of tribe of us, of three families who had nine kids together at that point. We had one child, Alex, but he was like such a great friend with all of these neighbors, and they would do plays in the backyard and you know you name it. They did it.
So you know, we just had just a just a normal everyday life. Alex was a super kid, he was smart, he was good looking. He was very athletic. He went, he had it black belt in karate, but his love was really baseball. And he started with Little League and went all the way through. The end of Little League and then went to middle school basketball and high school basketball and you name it, he did it. So he was just, uh, uh, just a kind of your everyday athletic, wonderful kid until he was about 12. And at when he was 12, he began to get began to suffer from anorexia. And uh. Went down to 68 lbs which was about 75% of what his weight should have been at that age, and he got to the point where he just refused to eat. And you just think how can something like this happen? Obviously he was self medicating and attempting to be in control of something. And if you know anything about anorexia, you know that that's what happens. People get anxious, they get depressed and this is their form of self medication because it's the one thing they can control. It doesn't happen so often with young boys, but it happened, Alex, when he was 12 and we took him to an eating disorder unit, which was at a nearby hospital and he was there for a months, inpatient. And then he was there, as in a kind of outpatient setting, and then followed up by much therapy. Both psychological therapy, but you know, nutrition kind of therapy.
So he was so he was just they have behavioral therapy that really worked for him. So he began to gain weight we bought for bribery purposes. We bought a German shepherd puppy. Lexie was her name and we have lots of pictures of Lexie and Alex in the book. And she was so important for Alex. You know, she gave him just what he needed. But obviously there was something deeper than that going on. And within a short time, he started drinking, drinking to excess. And by the time he got to high school. He was definitely drinking too much, beginning to experiment with. Some drugs like marijuana, but uh, you know, he just seemed to be better. I mean, by the time he got out of the hospital, we, the eating disorder unit, we felt like we had our good family back right and. We kind of had, you know, it's really like the calm before the storm is what I call it. And then when he got to college, that's when he began to drink more and black out have blackout drinking and start with other kinds of drugs, harder kinds of drugs. Not heroin at that point, but sort of up to oxies all from all from the black market, of course, because he wasn't ever prescribed oxies, you know. About the trauma associated with prescription drug abuse through pharma, right? But he wasn't, that's not what happened with him. You know, that happened with a lot of kids, you know, they hurt something and they ended up getting into oxies and then heroin. But with Alex, it wasn't that. It was really self medication, you know, insecurity and. You know, that was something that was really leading him in that direction.
He graduated from College in 2012 and that's really when the problems got even worse, because we had two deaths in the family, his grandmother who he was extremely close too, died a month after he graduated from college. And then my husband's brother, who lived half a mile away. He died six weeks later that same month. So and his wife had died eight years earlier. And so both of them of heart related issues. And Alex was just devastated and at the same time he was his career plans were kind of collapsing because he had two acceptances at universities for a dental school. And both of them fell through. So he was at this point where, you know, his friends were moving ahead. He was not moving ahead. He felt, you know, from his anorexia. Right. He always said, oh, that's like a girl's disease. Right. That's not should be that I should be having trouble with, so that really troubled him. When my husband's brother died, we took in two children, their children and we love those two kids. They are now our son and daughter. They are grown, right and this by this point they are in their 20s and doing really, really well. So we are you know we feel like. It it's really kind of strange in a way that we lost our son and then within a few years, actually it was before we kind of reconfigured our family from one kid to three kids. And then with all of that kind of change that is required when that happens and then losing our son three years later and so but it is it's very strange that we lost a son but gained two children. And they are, you know, moving forward, our kids and we love them.
So that's almost the end of the story. So we, Alex, in 2013 started experiments with heroin. And we were amazed, you know, we had never known at that point anybody who had was experimenting with heroin and that became a kind of we call it carousel from hell. The whole rehab experience is a carousel from hell and. UM. And then he ended up after 12 rehabs refusing to go in the last rehab and coming home and coming back to Newark, which was near us and died of a heroin overdose. So you know, that really is the end of the story. In fact, I described that last chapter I called into the road because, you know a lot. I wont Describe how did you get there, you know, and why was it that this happened to our family and, you know, I kind of, I make the point in the book that if this happened my family, it could have any family. I think. And I wrote my book for people who have gone through, may have lost their child or not, but also for those people who think it can't happen to them. Because I want them to know what it's like to live with the person who uses substances. Because I think the stigma is very stark and raging as I call it, and we need to kind of address that, keep it down. We need to provide services. And some of the other questions you have, I'll get at you know sort of how I approached the issue, but that's the basic story.
Hilary: Well, Pat, thank you so much for sharing your story and first and foremost obviously you know. Your poor son and what your family's been through. So sorry, that that that was that was part of that story. But you know, as you mentioned and the one thing that that I thought about. Was like you were describing in the beginning. You were. You know, what people would refer to as this ideal family. And so, I'm so grateful that you are willing to share the story, because I do. I think there are many people out there that think. It happens to other people, but it doesn't happen to me. We, you know, we're fine. Everything is OK. We've got it together. And so, I'm glad that you are shedding light on this fact that you know what? It can happen to anyone, regardless of our background and you know our family structure. This is substance abuse is real and it can happen to anyone. So, I'm so grateful that you are willing to share that? And they're willing to share Alex's story so that we can learn from it.
Pat: And it's getting worse. I mean, this is the problem. No, no one thought that it would get to this point. And people said that five years ago, people said that 10 years ago, it’s only gotten worse. And if you think that last in the last. Uh, 12 months, right? Just the last year. Ah, 110,000 people died of overdose. And you know, it's in every state, so people can't. People have disabused themselves of the notion that it can't happen to them, because I think my story is a good is a good example of how it can happen to anyone.
Hilary: Yes, I know when a lot of families go through difficult things and I think this is natural for families to question, but a lot of times we say to ourselves. How could I have prevented this? What could I have done differently? Was there a time where that question came up and the solution was created? What did that look like for you?
Pat: I think, you know to think about it, I think it's important to understand that people think that, you know. Oh, OK, I've got a plan, right. I got a plan of action for my family. And it's good to have plans you can plan. But what happens with plans, they fall apart.
Hilary: Yes, they do.
Pat: So, it's not just what you're prepared, what you do or what you're prepared to do, but there, and this is the sociologist in me, right. But there are factors outside of your control that impact your life. Right that you have no control over. I mean that summer of 2012, right? The summer from Hell as I call it, we did. None of that was, you know, that just happened to us. And you know, I think if you, I think what's important is knowledge, right. It's important to know what those factors are because knowledge is power. It enables you to handle it. So, I as a sociologist, I focus on what we call systemic factors, factors outside our personal control. And if you think about it, just said very simply, that is the context in which we make decisions. So of course there is individual choice, right? No one would say that there is not individual choice, but there's also a context in which that choice is made. And so you know, I think that's really important to remember. I think it's possible to, you know, like assess risks. And we certainly did this as we were going along, right? We realized that there and I and I talked about it in the book. We realized that there are factors outside of our control that we had family issues for are things like anorexia. you know for things like uh, you know drugs not so serious drugs is what Alex got into. But we had issues of psychological issues of panic attacks and you know, you name it. We had that. But you know, anxiety, depression, right? That was something that existed in our family. So it's important to take that into account and look around and see whether or not you have members of your family or extended family who have issues of substance use or issues of psychological factors. Right. That's. I mean, since I wrote this book, I've gotten to know members of my family's extended family that I really know very well, and they have told me about psychological issues and substance use issues in their family. So that was a revelation for me. I didn't know that. You know why? It's because people don't talk about it, right? People say ohh, you know, like they don't talk about it. But I think the other point that I wanna raise here is that it's not just psychological factors. But it's also what we call socioeconomic factors. So, things like poverty or unemployment or incarceration or racism, right? These are all factors that can impact substance use. They don't that you don't necessarily have to have that. I mean in my family. And we didn't we it was more of the sort of psychological. But you know, we didn't beat him. He wasn't abused in any way shape or form, right? It was just a normal everyday good family. And it just that just goes to show that you don't need unemployment and poverty and racism to still lead to issues. Still lead to issues with substance use, and we have to gotta remember that substance use includes drinking, right? It's alcohol because alcohol is tremendously problematic in our society. Lots of young, young people grow up with parents who abuse alcohol, and so we tend to not think so much about alcohol because it's legal, but it's just as horrific in terms of the effects that has on families that as drug use. One way or the other. So, you know, I think this is even worse now, the whole anxiety, I'm sure you've read that it's rampant, just it's gotten worse, especially since the pandemic. And so it's happening. It's happening, too. If not your family, your neighbors family. Your extended family, you know it's happening everywhere. So I just think it's important for people to be aware that there are these other factors and not look and say there's something wrong in that family. They're doing something wrong. If we can figure out what they're doing. Wrong, you know, then we can not do that wrong thing in our family. But it just is not as simple as that. Right? So that's my long answer. Thank you for letting me be a sociologist.
Hilary: I have a, I have a colleague up at Utah State and he often talks about how. Parenting is not a prescription. If it was, that would make life much easier because we could come to these families and we could say here you go, just perform XY and Z and your problems will be solved and that is not the case. And so. You know, I think you're very correct when you talk about how and this is coming from the person that likes to have their hand in every pot and likes to feel like they are in control. That sometimes we can create a plan, but plans don't always, you know, they don't always happen as we assume they will happen in our head. And so I appreciate this, this idea that. You know, there are other factors and this awareness component that we need to start talking so that we are aware of you know those potential factors doesn't mean we can prevent all of them. Not necessarily, but just having that initial awareness is going to help us out a lot when it comes to helping those of individuals.
Pat: But I think having that awareness is important for another reason, which is that. I think people who have issues of substance use, feel they are alone and that it's not happening to anyone else and then they start connecting with other people, you know. And now there's much more services available for people you know, hopefully in your organization as well, that help people through these times in their life. But I think if you think that it's just my fault. Or my child's fault or my husband's fault or my wife's fault. Or it's our family's fault in one way or another. Then you end up being, you know, you close yourself down and you think. Ohh my gosh, what did we do wrong and. I think it's so liberating to realize that there are these other factors that you think, ohh my gosh this you know, this is something that runs in my family and it. And if you know that from a young age, right you can you can. Sort of help address those issues from a younger age rather than wait until something happens, so I think it's a way of making people feel. Like, Oh my gosh, it's not just my fault, right? Yeah. Putting that in quotes for me. Right. There are these other and it's not that I'm saying that there's no individual responsibility. Far from it. What I'm saying is that individual choice happens in a larger context, and we need to understand that larger context in order to do something about it. So.
Hilary: Well, and I think oftentimes parents spend a lot of time. Name and there's a lot of guilt associated with this idea that I did this. I created this. I should have stopped this. And that's not the type of life we want to live, where we constantly feel that burden, you know, so.
Pat: You're right about that.
Hilary: So Pat, I'm curious, you mentioned. And you spoke to some of the resources that you guys were able to utilize through Alex's experience, but talked to us about some resources or some strengths that you dwelled upon through this situation that was able to help you.
Pat: You know, I think I just started from a very, you know, the that most horrible point at which you learn that your son is dead. And you know, what do you do? You know, it's just like that was the beginning of the rest of my life at that point. Uh. And so I had to, you know, figure out. What is it that I do survive? It think that that. Is. Really an important part of resiliency is to kind of do this inventory in yourself and say, OK, what do I need to do? I'm just going to put one foot in front of the other. But you know, and yes, that's exactly what happens. You put one foot in front of the other and you live your life, and then you figure out, OK, how do I reengage with the world? So, you know what I did was, you know, we first of all just escaped. We went out to Montauk and have some friends out there. And, you know, just kind of escape and live in the beautiful nature of what Montauk is. But then you have to come back to your real life, right? And figure out, oK, what do I do now? So you know, I just started. I had always been somebody that would go out and eat with friends. I would take students to lunch. I would go out with colleagues for breakfast. You know, that kind of thing. So I started to do that again. And I started to talk with some people who had had this kind of traumatic experience in their own life and then I need, then I need to, you know, we did all the things that I did yoga, I did meditation. And you know, I did all these things that. I was part of self-care, but I soon began to feel like OK, this is not enough. I need to reengage with the world. So I found others that were grieving like I was and I went on online and found some online groups that were supported at that point in time. There weren't that many. Me right. This was back nine plus years ago, right. And then I thought, OK, well, I need to be around people. So I joined a Maranon group which is 12 step program and I love the people. The people were just great, but I just couldn't deal so much with the program. You know no cross talk. You know, it's just it wasn't for me because I always wanted to talk more, right? This is what's going on me/ But I got to know the people outside of the group and they were really great and they were very supportive. My husband and I went to a grief group and again they were. We stayed for about a year and that I love the people. I'm still connected to some of those people on, on social media. And I call them my grief buddies because and they understand they more than anybody, understand what it's like to lose someone to. So that was really important for communicating. So I, you know, continued walking, you know, and doing acupuncture and yoga, all of that. I even went to a psychic, a friend of mine took me to a psychic, said Pat, you need. To go to a psychic and it was interesting, you know, I mean, I'm a social scientist. So, I think you know what is this? You what am I doing? And my husband was like what the. I didn't tell him till I got back. It was. It was still very interesting and I went to my grief group because we were still going to the grief group at that point, and three of the moms had been to a psychic, and none of the dads. And since I studied gender differences, you know, that was the main thing. I studied in my career. You know, I thought. Ohh here's another interesting gender difference. Why are those women going and were men not and. We all found it kind of useful.
So then I looked for ways of beginning to do something you know politically, and I joined. I wanted to be connected with a small group of people doing something that I would see and point with that I would find a success and I did. I found this a group called Denied Treatment, which was interested in. Addressing parity issues, which basically have been since 2008, had been legal federally, but it hadn't really worked so well at the state level, and so the idea was we need to make sure this is really happening at the state level and that people who have physical issues and people that have substance use issues will well. The people who have substance use issues. And mental health issues that that will be treated in the same way people with physical issues. So, you know, if your kid has diabetes, then that should be treated in the same way as a kid who has mental health and substance use issues. And it's not and it's still not, but we did move forward on this, I testified at the in the one of the. State legislators and eventually the Governor, Phil Murphy, signed it into law, so that felt like a real win, you know? Yay. Yes. And then I really, that's when I started to write because and I call it like writing for recovery, I started writing this book. And I said, I really just, I started it as a way to honor Alex. To have people understand right what it's like to have someone who is addicted and I wanted to do it in such a way that as a sociologist that the insights that I have from being a sociologist are. Umm. Shed light on how one best handles this and also I did it because I wanted to change the conventional ways that we think about addiction, right, which is 12 step programs. You know, that's not. I think we have to really focus on not thinking in about of criminal justice we need to we need have multiple paths to recovery, right? Not just the 12 step program, but we also have to think about it as a way to bring public health to the four front as we are dealing with it because we can't think about it anymore as a criminal justice approach. We can't just throw people in jail and expect that they're that it's good for their families. It's mostly not good for their families because it takes fathers or mothers away from their family and so it's. Real. I mean, it's interesting because Christina Dent, who I talked with you before we started recording, wrote this book called Curious. And she she's very strongly in in, in agreement, even though she's an evangelical Christian. And I'm a liberal, college professor. You know, we have very similar ideas to how you address this and we both really believe. That that using public health ways of thinking about it and harm reduction, which is a very different way of thinking about it than the criminal justice approach. You know, we both feel like this, I mean Christina describes it as a pro-life issue that you're pro-life for that family. That because you don't want that father or mother to be taken away from his or her family. You want them together because that family is going to be a lot stronger if you can help that person get off drugs, stay off drugs so he or she can be a member of the. Again. So that's what you want. You don't want them languishing in jail. So is that long, is that, is that useful?
Hilary: That's a great answer. I work with so in addition to doing this podcast, I work outside of the family place. I teach incarcerated fathers, and it is heartbreaking because many of those fathers have you. Are there due to substance use and substance abuse and the course is primarily focusing on reunifying them with their children with the hope that eventually reunification will occur. But it's heartbreaking to hear how many of them have gone such long periods of time without connecting and being with their kids, and I think. This is not helpful to separate. This is not helpful for you. This is not helpful for them and they will share how their children are doing and oftentimes it is not well. Well, and I think What are we doing here?
Pat: Right. Exactly. You hit the you hit the nail on the head. And. And I think Christina's done some interesting connecting with criminal justice groups. And you know, they first say to her things like the first time I heard you, I thought you were crazy. But the second time I heard you, I really heard you and this is what education is all about, right? If the education educating people that there are better ways to do. Substance use, yeah. I was going to say I don't want to say criminalizing right because I don't believe in criminalizing it. I believe that it should not be a critical it could be justice matter. It should be a public health matter and with it, if we think about people in different ways, if we humanize them as opposed to think about them as people different I think my story is a good example of people is that we are not different, we are the same, right. And I'm sure that there are people in your audience who hear that and they hear and they say, Oh yeah, I know. You know, two families. And since I started publicizing this book, I can't tell you how many people have said. And one woman told me that three of her four best friends lost their son in the last four years. You know, and this is again just like normal families, it's killing our youth especially it's killing our young, our young men. But it's more than young men. It's killing women. It's killing moms. And it's killing dads and. We need to do something about it. So I think I'm, I'm. Just I think the problem is too many politicians look at this as you know, they want to be seen as being tough on crime and so they go along with, you know, criminalizing this. And ohh, we just need to throw them in jail and but that's not good. It's not good for the person obviously. But it's also not good. For this this ripple effect that it has all these other people in their family who are being destroyed by keeping people in jail too.
Hilary: Yeah. And it's hard because I. Think the roots of tradition run deep, and so doing something different is hard. It's scary. There's a lot of unknown, but how else are we supposed to move forward as a society if we are not willing to try something different? And sometimes that something different fails, and that's OK, it's an experimentation. Process. But we've got to move away from what we've always done in the past because that may not necessarily be the best option like you mentioned. We're on the same page with this I love it? Yes. So Pat, I'm curious because I'm making the assumption that there may be some individuals listening to your story right now who may have a child that has a substance abuse problem. So, any advice for those families that are in the middle of this struggle of what they can do to help themselves as well as their child?
Pat: Yeah, I think there are so many more resources out there than I had. You know, when Alex was in active addiction, let's see in 2013 to 2015, right before he died. And I, you know, I know how to do research, right. This is my the bread and my bread and butter. So I know how to do it and I did all this. All the research I could and I could not find any programs because that was all that that people talked about, right? You have to get the kid out of the house. You find programs that are real. And there were only 12 step programs. He went to 12 different rehabs, and every single one of them was a 12 step and just didn't work for him. And I'm not down on 12 step, right? I mean, I know some people are friends of Alex's who went to 12 step and other people that I talked with. I talked with a lot of people. In my book. I talk with lots of friends of Alex, but I also talk about all the people they came in contact with and I also got data from every single rehab and detox and hospital that he was in. So, I learned a lot about what goes on. So, you know, I think that 12 step is just fine. Works for some people, but at this point we think about multiple paths to recovery and there's something called SMART Recovery which I think Alex tried once. His dad took him to one SMART Recovery. It was early on in that process. I think it's grown in terms of what it provides. But I think looking for programs that allow medication is very important. Most 12 step programs do not allow that at this because they view it. As moving on to a different drug, you know it's such. It's a drug still and that's uh. That's true, but if you wanna save your child or relative your mother-in-law, right? If you wanna save person, you have to save them. You have to keep them alive. And so the idea is not at first and necessarily cure them, right? Is that you gotta keep them alive until they get to the point where they're they want to do this themselves. Alright so. I think uh, looking for programs that allow for medications, you know, medications for opioid use disorder, methadone, right. These are all names that people use to talk about them. If you can find a place an outpatient. Most people who end up having difficulty with drugs, don't have access to any kind of program at all, so some of this stuff has to happen in the home.
So, through outpatient programs that I think outpatient programs can work as well or better. So, I think that that's. Really. Uh. Important to take that into account is find the right program. Do the research. Look for programs that have harm reduction principles. Because those are principles that, as they say, meet, meet the person where he or she is right, even if that means that they still end up using drugs as long as you can keep them alive. Time is really, really important. Keep them alive and until something can hit. So I think in terms of the parents, the moms, for example, there's a wonderful site called “Moms for all paths to recovery” and it's open to dads as well. So it's not just moms, but “moms for all past, recovery” is incredible. It's not a support. Group per se. It's a it's a. It's a website that deals with education. So people ask, you know, I've heard about this kind of program, what did? What's people's experience with this? And then everybody pipes in the education on that. I learned something new every day. I mean, I thought I knew just about everything that there was and I learned so much harm reduction and about how people are handling this in their own families. So I think that is a critical resource. Moms for all paths to recovery. It's a you join it. You just have to say I have an issue. I'm dealing with an issue. You know, and you can join and it's moderated, right? So somebody's watching it to make sure that there are goals, but that is sort of the best program. I just love a dot program. It's a, you know, like a web page. And I spoke at it, you know, about a month ago. And uh, I was just so impressed with it and I read it now almost every day and find out what's going on. And I I'm still learning. A huge number of things. So a mom or dad going through this and his or her own family, right, this this was an incredible resource I have, by the way, a number of resources that I posted on my web page. So if you go to patrose.com. Is my web page and you'll see that I have a resource page at the end and that gives memoirs, all the memoirs that I wrote the art, some of the articles I wrote, the books about mental health and about substance use, but then there's a following page that deals with. Resources that are available, like moms for all paths. But there's a number of other resources as well, and so anybody who wants to research this and find the best, the best, the resource that is best for you, right. That's the way to do it, but this just you know, for me this didn't exist. 10/12 years ago, when I was starting this thing and I wanted my book to be a resource for people. And I think if people are going through it, my story, it's a sad story. It's a hard story to read. It's somewhat triggering. But I think it's very useful for people to understand, wow, this has happened to Pat. This happened in her family and you know, finding it very. Liberating and revelatory in a way. So I think that I think that those resources that I have on my web page, patroos.com and reading my book right will help people realize, OK, well, here is maybe this is maybe something I can do.
Hilary: OK. And per usual, we will include your web page as well as the way to access your book in our show notes so that our listeners can have access to that. So we want them to be able to utilize those resources. You've done a lot of the leg work already. Now we can we can take advantage. Of those if. If we are in a similar position in need.
Pat: One last thing is that we talked about it off the air, but I was would like to encourage you to think about creating some kind of mother and child unit where people can come for rehab purposes and as I mentioned, Christina Dent book addresses that in a really a wonderful way and really changed her from someone who was focused on a criminal justice to a harm reduction approach. Because she saw how well it happened, and your organization seems absolutely perfect for that. So. That would be great if you could do that.
Hilary: So not only has pat given you guys an assignment, but she's given me one as well too. so please. Well, but I am so grateful that you have been able to be here. I know that this information that you shared has been not only insightful, but will be incredibly helpful to many, many individuals, whether they have experienced this struggle or a similar struggle like you said, I think that the beauty of your story. Kind of Alex's story is that it's a story that can that that many of us can connect to and. And I think that that's a powerful thing. If we can make those connects. And you know, help one another, support one another through these times of need. So thank you for sharing this story.
Pat: That's how I tried to write it to make it accessible t anyone needs it.
Hilary: Good. Good. Ohh well thank you so much. I am excited to read it and I am excited to take this information to my director so that we can then continue working on this progress as well too.
Pat: You're interested in talking with me, you know? Call me on the phone. I'll be happy to give advice and have him or her read Christina Dent new book, As well as mine.
Hilary: Yes. Well thank you and thank you as thank you as always to our listeners out there. We appreciate your love and your support in regards to our podcast. And as we've mentioned, you know, if you do have particular questions, you're welcome to reach out to us as an agency. And obviously Pat has given the permission to reach out to her as well too, if she has. If you have questions or concerns, thank you again for being here. Be safe and kind to one another and have a good day.
Jen: Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents at thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly - The Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is TheFamilyPlaceUtah.org. If you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes. We would love to see you there.
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