Intro to Substance Abuse

When it comes to substance use, there is a lot of misconceptions. Some of these include how to help family and friends who are struggling, how mental health plays a role with addiction and how we can help those who are in this situation.

Kyle is a Psychotherapist at Ora Counseling here in Logan Utah. He has his own journey with substance abuse and years of knowledge, training, and a passion for helping others.

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Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen.

Hilary: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast. We are excited to have you today. I have a guest host.

Alissa: My name is Alissa, so I'm actually one of the background workers of the podcast, but I am filling in for Jen. Because her voice is none existent.

Hilary: Yes it is officially gone. Yes, Alissa runs the show, runs all the behind the scenes stuff that Jen and I don't know how to do. And we're really grateful for her and all that she does. But Jen and I were just in the process of recording a previous podcast where she could not speak midway through so. We're glad for the filling.

Alissa: So you hit me. Hopefully, I don't laugh too loud.

Hilary: But yes, thank you, Alissa, for being here. And we have another guest with us as well today, too. So Kyle Hickman is joining us today and so glad that you're here. Kyle, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Kyle: Thank you, Originally well, I originally grew up in Oklahoma, moved here to Cache Valley about 25 years ago. Well, so I kind of say I'm a native here. I went to school at Skyview and attended Utah State where I earned my bachelor's degree in social work and attended Utah State as well for my Masters in social work and I currently work at ORA counseling at their North office over by the North Walmart.

Hilary: Nice. OK. Well, first of all, congratulations on Skyview. I approve of that. And clearly Utah State, I mean. Obviously,

Alissa: Obviously, Go Aggies!

Hilary : So good choices good choices. So Tell us a little bit about Ora counselling for those that may be unfamiliar with the agency.

Kyle: So we just expanded, they've been open in the valley for a few years for quite a few years. I guess originally it was a facility called Synergy Counseling. They they did a lot of stuff with kids in the foster care and just kind of expanded from there. They just expanded to this North office and I started there in the beginning of June. There's a lot, like the atmosphere is really great. They have a lot of diversity as far as therapists go, and it's just it's an amazing, amazing atmosphere to work in.

Hilary: Now, for those that aren't local because we do have a lot of individuals, our audience is for local or local individuals. But for those outside of Utah and. The area can you provide some of your services virtually or do you tend to just do in person.

Kyle: We do have some that do telehealth. I personally like to at least start in person to help build that relationship, but I'm open to doing telehealth.

Hilary: OK.

Kyle: Especially after the relationships there. But yeah, there are. There are other therapists there that provide telehealth.

Hilary: OK. Do you specialize in a particular type of therapy?

Kyle: Yes and no. I mean, I like to think that I specialize in substance use and trauma as well as a trauma modality called brain spotting because it's not as well recognized as EMDR and ERT and stuff. But it's a very intense trauma modality that kind of triggers you into fight or flight, and it helps reduce symptoms of trauma fairly quickly with, I mean, can be within anywhere from like 2 to 10 sessions.

Hilary: Wow, OK.

Alissa: Yeah interesting

Hilary: So, we strategically have you here for a reason on this particular week and for our audience that has listened and listens regularly, we know that we have been talking about substance abuse prevention, given that it is abuse prevention month.

Alissa: Yes, October is Substance use awareness month

Hilary: So, we want to make our audience aware of all things involved in substance abuse, what warning signs? What to avoid, what to watch out for, how to help the loved one, or even yourself involved in that situation, and then, obviously, we're excited to have you here so that you can provide that clinician mindset as well too as to how to best help an individual get the support that they need.

Kyle: For sure.

Hilary: So let's start at the beginning with like substance abuse 101. So we know that many. I mean, so, well, let's start here. This is a simple question. When we talk about a substance. What? Are some of those things included?

Hilary: In reality, it when I think of substance use in the substance I think of anything that's a mind altering substance, a mood altering substance. That could be inhalant, that could be even prescription medications, like if we're abusing them even getting to the point where they become a little too dependent on them so.

Hilary: OK, OK.

Kyle: We think of someone who's prescribed painkillers or even in an anti anxiety medication and taking a little bit too more often than they need to take it. It's a mind altering substance that, well, I mean alters your mind.

Hilary: And when do we know that that's gone to the case.

Kyle: That's a difficult question. I think from my experience is that. It depends on what. When we think of addiction, a lot of the times people are trying to escape something. Whether it's some kind of trauma, whether it's some kind of undesirable emotion or whatever, it is. So if its a one time thing like it might not be as easily recognizable. Whereas like this pattern starts to continue. So if if someone out there is wondering if they have an addiction or if someone is a loved one of someone who might be questioning that. Is like why? Why are they using what they're using and how often are they using it? So the DSM kind of states that even an addiction could be someone who's drinking 3 to 4 beers a day, which doesn't seem like a lot. But if it's a continuously everyday thing, then that's considered like a diagnosable addiction, like a an alcohol abuse disorder.

Alissa: OK. Does it? Have to, like, impact their life in a certain way to make that diagnosis. Or is it just like 3 to 4 beers

Hilary: Not no, not necessarily, because there's different severities, there's, there's mild, there's moderate and severe, so mild might be that 3 to 4 beers a day or as severe as like drinking 1/5 a day. And it just depends on how many criteria it meets. So any if there's, I think there's like 9 to 10 criteria. If it means five or six and it's considered like a severe diagnosis.

Alissa: OK.

Kyle: But in my experience, like I said is that if you're running for something, then that's kind of when we start to question things like I look at my own like I'm in recovery myself. And I look at my own addiction and the journey through that is that I suffered traumas early on in my own life and not recognizing that I wasn't educated enough on it. I started using when I was 16 and my first trauma was the loss of my father around the age 12. So eventually, like I find this substance. And I keep continuing to escape from it over and over again, and trauma after trauma after trauma keeps happening. So I keep trying to escape from that trauma for the next 14 years of my life.

Hilary: OK. So I'm thinking of an individual that we recently spoke with and when he was sharing his story, he talked about how initially. It was a social thing. I mean that that's what they do on the weekends and you know that's there wasn't ever a question of what are we going to do it? It was always, we're going to go drink. And thinking of a lot of these, these social drinkers, that that may or may not to be drinking during the week or maybe have a glass of wine at the end of the day. What's different I mean, or is an individual that's a social drinker, is that a problem? Or when would that become a problem?

Kyle: I mean and if it could be a problem like are you? Are you? When you're socially drinking like, what are you doing? Are you just having a couple drinks or when you go out to socially drink on a weekend? Like, are you? Are you celebrating something or are you trying to escape from, like, stressors from work or something like that and you have 5 too many drinks. Does that make sense? Like it just it kind of depends on that. Cause you would classify some of that into like a substance use disorder too. Depending on like why? Like am I. Am I out there, did I find out my wife? Well, maybe now my wife is cheating on me. That might be an extreme one. But like, did I just lose a promotion at work? So I go and I drink my sorrow away. Like, does that make sense? Like so there could be a lot of different reasons. But right. You're like, it's a progressive disease and again. I look at it through my own as I never, I never just dove into an addiction like it was originally. I started drinking and smoking weed on the weekends and then eventually became an everyday thing and that progressed to even heavier and heavier drugs.

Alissa: OK, so it's kind. Of like a process. Is there do you think like a stereotypical process or is it pretty unique on each individual.

Kyle: It's individualized for each person, like there's not just some kind of cookie cutter experience or process for anyone individually kind of. I can only use my own experience and experience with other people that I worked with too, but what I have noticed though is that it there is that kind of general like why? Getting into it. Like they say. There's a couple, I don't know if you guys know the Russell Brand is. He's an actor and he's an activist. .

Hilary: I've heard of the name.

Kyle: He's in recovery himself too, and he's a 12 step like an AA guy, but he something he said early, like stuck out with me particular is that weed id not a gateway drug. Alcohol is not a gateway drug. Nicotine is not a gateway drug. The gateway to addiction is trauma. And then not only that. And not only that but any kind of addiction, eating disorders, substances, sex, pornography, or whatever it is, it's just a symptom of all these other things that are going on in our life. So, if we focus on these other things that are going on in our life why do we need this over here?

Hilary: So, on a therapeutic approach, I am assuming. That that's what we focus on first, we focus on that trauma and then.

Kyle: It depends. It depends on the individual, depends on how heavy are like we think about alcohol and benzodiazepines. You don't want to just in those situations you don't want to just have them stop using because that can cause death. So with alcohol, we and benzos, we have them go through a detox process. So you start with what's going on first and then kind of go back to. So we stabilize and then go back.

Hilary: OK, but there is always to a degree, working on that trauma that had occurred to them at some point in their life. Because without that, we probably can't completely work through the substance abuse itself.

Kyle: Yeah. So and not necessarily saying that's going to get away that like get the substance abuse completely. Like if people can moderate after that, more power to them. I know I can't. I'm abstinence base and I can't do that. But there's other people out. There, that can't do that either. But if that's the that's the reason that's the underlying issue that's causing you to drink or use or anything like that. Then we focus on that.

Alissa: So like substance, substance. Oh wow. Maybe I am like Jen

Kyle: You're losing your voice too!

Hilary: Two down! Two Down

Alissa: Haha Yeah sorry Hilary I have to stop, it's just you! So, substance abuse and mental health are very connected, I feel like that's a common misconception.

Kyle: Yeah, 100%. Sometimes it's like sometimes people think it's like the chicken. What comes first, the chicken or the food type of thing? But I mean, substance use can lead to mental health issues, but mental health issues can also lead to substance use issues because we think of any kind of we think of like uppers like Adderall, methamphetamine, stuff like that. The dopamine is being just shot out in your body and then all of a sudden you stop using. It depletes it and you're just so low, right. So then getting back to homeostasis. Whereas alcohol, painkillers, benzodiazepines like they're this depressants and people tend to be here. And they're using it and it's getting them even lower, so trying to get back to homeostasis is as difficult too. So the big thing is like being. Able to have that that. Abstinence for a longer period of time in order to kind of get back to where like. Let your body heal for itself, or heal itself.

Hilary: So talk to us about some of maybe the, I'm thinking of a family member or friend who has some concern about, you know, about somebody in their life as to whether or not they may have a substance abuse problem. What are some of the warning signs? Things that we could potentially watch out for.

Kyle: I think a lot of, the biggest thing that comes to my mind is isolation. We tend to isolate from people that care about us and start to attach towards the substance more than we actually attach to the people. In our lives. So if you're starting to notice people's behaviors becoming erratic and isolating a lot like that's a huge symptom or a huge warning sign. If, like, hey, something might be going on and whether or not it's the substance in the beginning or if the mental health part that you lead into the substance use, we think of the behaviors that lead to that too. So any kind of anything that's causing them to act out irrationally or like I said, the isolation. If you notice something that's off like don't be afraid to have that conversation with them.

Hilary: And if they deny? How do we how do we continue to support?

Kyle: You got to continue to love them for. Like if you know something's going on, you can't force them.

Alissa: They have to be willing to share with us, I’m assuming

Kyle: Yeah, the open and willing is a huge thing in in recovery, but if they're not ready, they're not ready. So and there's another Johann Hari is he's actually don't know if you guys have ever heard of Bruce Alexander or the. Study of Rap Park so. He's Bruce Alexander's nephew and he does this Ted talk. That kind of changed my perspective on a lot of things too. But he said it's everything you know about addiction is. So in that at the very end of it, he says the opposite of addiction is connection. So we think about the isolation part, right, like they're isolating, isolating, and a lot of the times what we want to do is just shut them out of our life. When in reality, that's like one of the most detrimental things that we can do. There needs to be boundaries. But and those boundaries are different for every, every individual and every relationship. But we have to focus on those boundaries, but show them that love and that affection that they need because they're already beating themselves up. Like we're having this internal battle inside of like everything that, that, that we're going through. It's like I I never wanted to be addicted. And in fact, everything of that went against all the values and beliefs that I was taught growing up, so that I'm going against everything in my own core values. And so I'm having this own guilt and shame and all this internal battle that's going on inside of my head. The last thing I would want is my family to shut me out and that's where I'm very grateful that my family personally, they didn't do that. They did hold a strong boundary and they called the cops on me at one point. But and I held her resentment at that point towards my brothers. But and I look at it now and I'm like, they're just trying to save my life so. Love, love and compassion. Don't shut them out.

Hilary: Isn't it amazing that that tends to be the answer to most things in life is. That power of relationships, yes.

Alissa: Yes, like human connection and love. It could all be solved if we just loved others

Hilary: Just being nice into each other.

Kyle: Just give me a freaking hug!

Hilary: Wow. You know we have an individual on our podcast, though I'm thinking of this isolation and that was his kind of go to response. but it was due to the fact that he, he said, you know, I needed to step away from all of those people that I knew that were drinkers. And I and I kind of closed myself inside because I couldn't go to the store because I would see alcohol. I couldn't go to parties because I knew people were drinking. So that was his response was isolate so that they can prevent potential problems. And so that's pretty common then?

Kyle: Yeah. When I'm when I'm working with people a lot of the times there's three things that help with either diving into an addiction or recoveries. People, places and things. People being the number one thing. So if I'm going to continue to surround myself with people who are using, I'm going to use too. Regardless, whether it's the first day, whether it's the thousandth day, it doesn't matter. I'm going to end up. And places like liquor stores or places where I used to use like those are huge triggers too. And different types of things, things being needles, rituals, whatever it is. But on the other hand is that if I surround myself with people who have what I want, and this is where like I will. In Narcotics, Anonymous was a huge foundation for me. I lacked a lot of spirituality in my life, and that's a very spiritual based program and that's where I found the foundation for my recovery. And I will always promote like people doing 12 step meetings and stuff of that because it changes the people, places and things.

Hilary: Yes, you have your people now at that point.

Kyle: And I know like and I don't go to meetings very often anymore, but that's again, that's the foundation. I know that if I ever need to go there, I can go there, those are my people.

Hilary: And remind us for our audience members that may be unaware. How do you find those groups. What the best way?

Kyle: Biggest thing that I have people do is I'll just go have them go on Google if I'm in this session, then I'll just pull. It up for them, but I just put AA meetings in northern Utah like near me or whatever it is. Narcotics anonymous meetings near me. There's also. If people are in the LDS faith, are struggling with that and want to have like minded people, there's LDS ARP meetings that they have. I'm assuming they still haven't looked in a long time, but on Wednesdays, Thursdays and Sundays I think. In Smithfield, Logan and Hyrum, I think is.

Hilary: So chances are there is something in your general proximity.

Kyle: There is a meeting every day, multiple time a day.

Alissa: Really. Do they even do like virtual options for those meetings?

Kyle: They do, yeah, they, they still they still have those. It as a lot bigger during COVID, but yeah, I don't think they're as widely used.

Hilary: There is probably power in being together with that particular situation.

Kyle: Yeah, it's that that connection makes the biggest difference. So they say the opposite of addiction is connection. Face to face is huge because I mean, and that kind of goes along with my telehealth sessions that I said I would do sometimes. It's like I can't read you. If I'm across the stream like I read the body and the body language to see how things are going.

Alissa: Yeah, you only see so much. The shoulders and up.

Kyle: For all I know, I could be fidgety.

Hilary: Ah ok. And I'm assuming. All of those groups are still provided free of charge and anyone can be involved.

Kyle: Yep, it's always free.

Hilary: And it's there's not a commitment right where I'm like, I'm signing myself up for the next six months.

Kyle: You know, if you can go to one meeting or 1000 meetings, it doesn't matter.

Hilary: OK, so amazing that we still have these and they are all over the place. Because what an amazing resource we have.

Kyle: And there is literally one everywhere in the world.

Hilary: So I want to go back to what something that you said previously when you talked about you guys both mentioned this idea that they need to make that decision on their own that that there's a problem and that. We need to take some steps to move forward, you know, as a family member looking towards someone that we love. Knowing that there's a problem and knowing they're not quite ready, is there anything we I mean, besides just saying I'll continue to love you, Is there anything we can do to say, hey, like, there's all these wonderful things out there for you thought for you to be involved.

Kyle: I mean, there's. There's different approaches that you can take for sure. I mean. Like I said before, was like don't be afraid to ask those questions like, hey, are you struggling? Like I noticed this was going on like are you OK? Is there anything I can do for you? Like being open and not being afraid to just they might backlash at you and realize that it has nothing to do with you and has everything to do with them and that the struggles that they're going through and kind of prepare for that. I mean that's the worst case scenario. Than best case scenario is they say yeah I am struggling. And then you can sit with them and say, well, let's figure this out. Like, what do you need? What support can I give you? In the very end of that, he said. And Johann Hari, in the very end of this Ted talk, he says that he's like, I will just sit with you. That's it like if you need me to sit here, I will sit with you, and if that's all it is, if that's all it takes, then that is what I’ll do.

Hilary: I'm sure everybody's journey is different, but are there steps that we would want to take to like aid in that process once somebody comes to us and says I need help, you know, continue to be in my life, continue to support me. Are there other things that we should be doing to help them through that process?

Kyle: I don't necessarily think there are like any steps. I mean, I look at it from like a therapeutic perspective is like we want to take the path of least resistance. We want to like the least restrictive care. So depending on where they're at individually, like if they're like, yeah, I'm just starting to get into this like. Suggest therapy or AA meetings. If they're drinking 1/5 to a gallon a day like detox is going to be the first place you want to go. Kind of guiding them to more of like a mental health professional that can kind of help. Take them down that path of like, OK, we're going to assess you at this level of care or like, you just need this like that's kind of the approach that I would.

Hilary: Take and clearly we're big believers in the therapeutic process here at the Family Place. But would you ever say that? Taking that therapy row is unnecessary for some, or should that be a part of that process for anyone?

Kyle: I mean, I'm not just saying this to be biased because I'm a therapist. I think everybody can benefit from therapy, regardless if it's once every two months to like twice a week, you know? But I mean, yeah, sure. There's times where it probably wouldn't be necessary, but again, like. It just kind of is individualized to each person like and that kind of goes back to like they have to be open and willing to actually get the help. So if they want to like, no, I'm not going to do therapy, but I'm willing to go to AA meetings. You jump on that. Like, if I I'll go with you to a meetings, like let's do these types of things. But setting a boundary like OK, if we can't get it. Like, are you willing to step up and step up and step up? Yeah. Getting him into therapy. I mean, I have immediate openings.

Hilary: I mean, I'm never going to say I'm never going to say no you shouldn’t do therapy That's why I'm like, alright, let me make sure it's clear that we are pro.

Kyle: I will say this though. They need the right therapist, OK. A majority of the progress made is through the relationship with the therapist, so if they if the individual goes in and meets with one person and they feel like hopeless, they don't give up because there's you're right therapist is out there for you. It doesn't matter. Like and I look at like, I'm not afraid if I don't feel the connections there, I would say I think that you will work better with this other therapist. Let's get you the help that you need.

Hilary: With boundary set up, is there a time where we're like, you know what? I can't help you anymore until you can help yourself. Or do we continue to do all those things, even when they're not pulling that that weight on the other end?

Kyle: Yeah, I mean and I don't, I wouldn't tell them like, OK, I'm done. Like I'm setting this boundary, but I mean that's a boundary that you have to set with yourself. Like, OK, I've noticed I've reached out four different times and they're not willing to do this with me. Like, I'm just going to wait for them. I'm not going to reach out to them anymore, but when they're ready, I will be here. And then there's also like in those situations too, there's Al-Anon meetings in the valley, I think there's only one and they meet once a week, but that's for the family members of people struggling with addiction. They kind of relate the steps to that way too. I could be wrong, I want to see it some Mondays at 7:30 but.

Hilary: You're good if you've got all these places and time memorized

Kyle: No, I can't remember.

Alissa: We can even look it up and then attach it to the show notes after as well.

Kyle: It's that's definitely. A huge support because they look at it from like a 12 step based approach too.

Hilary: Ok, but the idea that we're never going to completely step away from your life, but we're going to let you take the reins and you're going to make the decision when you're ready to take that step

Kyle:Yes exactly and I talk about the 12 steps a lot, because that's kind of my foundation and understanding like the 12 steps is not the foundation of everybody's recovery and they have to figure out what works for them. But in the first step it says we admitted that we were powerless over alcohol or drugs and that our lives have become unmanageable. So they have to be willing to make that decision like admit like,

Hilary: And that's the beginning. That's not step six or seven. Like that's the first and foremost. OK. When would you suggest maybe. I mean I'm thinking depending on the severity of the situation you might have. In patient care, I mean when do you know like for a family member or friend whether they need to be in a treatment facility versus just therapy?

Kyle: That's again, it's just it depends on the individuals. But if I look at it from my own experience and I used to have worked for Golden Steps for a while. So, this is something I did. For quite a bit. If they're struggling again, we want to go with the least restrictive care. So, if IOP works intensive outpatient, like if that's not working, then we step them up to another level of care which is PHP. Partial hospitalization, pre hospitalization, whatever we'll call it. And if that's not working, then you step them up again to residential or you start with a detox level of care. If they're, if they're using they need kind of a social detox to get away from the outside world and stuff like that and be able to come up the substance that they're using and really focus on themselves and the reasons why that they're using and then you step them down after that. So, there's residential, there's PHP or detox residential, PHP, IOP and then what's called GOP which is general outpatient and they do like one group and then an individual session every week.

Hilary: Now I'm making the assumption that. One of the reasons people are apprehensive about being involved in services as they see that big old price tag. So how do we get past? Are there programs? Are there any available help for those that say I need that helps, but I just can't afford it.

Kyle: Yeah, there are. It depends on the program too like. I'm not. I'm not too familiar with any like nonprofit programs around here that would allow you to do that. I do know like down towards like Weber County and Salt Lake County, like, there's nonprofit organizations that can help reduce the cost, like Odyssey House of Utah, they actually put you to, like, work. There to reduce the costs of your like your monthly cost or whatever, you don't call it. But then I also know like they have. Salt Lake has a program too that if you complete a Salt Lake City program, they'll actually fund you for six months worth of sober living in a Salt Lake City. Like a Salt Lake County silver liberty. So there's lots of resources.

Hilary: There's options available so that shouldn't be the deterrent for not seeking help

Kyle: Yeah. And here. And I'm, I don't want to say I'm biased to Golden Steps.

Hilary: That’s alright, just say it.

Kyle: I love the place, but I also love the other the facilities around here too. Like again it kind of goes back, they're an abstinence based program and that's what aligns with me obviously. But again like everybody's recovery is different. So, it depends on like what best fits your life. Clear Recovery can be a good option for other people. Renaissance Ranch to be an option, Day Springs, Bear River, like there's tons of places around here that like, and I will help them find whatever works best for them. But like I know.

Alissa: You might be like finding a therapy kind of just on that person, or you might connect with someone else.

Kyle: Yeah, yeah. Yep. 100 percent 100%.

Hilary: I hope I'm in the right place to ask this question because it is a personal question.

Kyle: No worries, I'm 100% an open book.

Hilary: But I'd love to hear one of the things that we often talk about in our interviews is what personally helped you through your struggle or your trial. So for you personally have any experience with this, are there certain things that as you look back, were the factors that helped you through your recovery?

Kyle: One was getting arrested, so like a little bit about me, my record goes back to when I was 18. I'm 40 now. And I was a five-time felon. But through that experience is kind of what led me to do what I want to do is like take my own trials and my traumas and everything that I've been able to overcome and help other people overcome their own. But a big thing for me personally like getting arrested was one because there's a program here called Drug Court well called Recovery Court now, but I'll always call it drug court. And it really gave me what I needed. Like I sought it out because it dismisses your charges. But and I I looked at it and kind of a selfish way when I first got on because I didn't want to be a felon. But through that it gave me the structure and the tools that I needed personally to help kind of grow. Accountability was huge. I could not have asked for a better judge, shout out to judge well, Mark. He's retired now, but that man was everything that I needed and kind of he doesn't know this. Not afraid to say it on here either. Again, like I lost my dad when I was 12 and I always saw a father figure and that's kind of what, I felt like my father would have been like, so that really helped me knowing that when I got up there in front of him, if I did something wrong like I would feel the disappointment, it would motivate me to get up there to do better. And then not only that, like my family was huge. I did anything and everything to push them away. But they were like gnats and would not leave me alone. They are pesky little things.

Hilary: I never heard that said that way but I love it.

Brandy: No, I'm very grateful eternally grateful for them because they're my best friends. They gave me that love and support that I needed, even though sometimes it wasn't the right kind. But regardless, they never left. So that's what I needed in my own was that that connection to my family and then and that structure and I mean, since then I've been able to have my record expunged and. But like I said, I went. Back and got my Masters degree and I am a LCSW.

Alissa: That's amazing.

Hilary: And I'm sure having lived what you have lived, I mean you you're able to put in that personal approach like you said. Not only can you say therapeutically, this will help, but I've lived this life too and so.

Kyle: Yeah. No, that's that goes back to like. Finding that right therapist, too, was like. I'm passionate and very passionate about substance use because I know like, I can't say I know exactly what they're going through, but I've been through the hell that they've been through. Yeah. And being able to come out on the other side, there was something that someone like a story that someone told me is like. There's a guy that fell into a hole and someone he like, he was screaming out, asking for someone to come. To help them. And someone walked past things like hey, like what can I do to help? He's like, I don't know, he's like, well, let me go get someone else. And he never came back. And so someone else came by and was like, well, what can I give you? Can I give you a ladder or something like that? So you dropped a ladder in there and the ladder was too small. So another guy stepped, came by and he's like, how can I help you? He's like, I just need help getting out of this hole. So we jumped into the hole with him. And he's like what are you doing? He's like now we're both stuck down here. He's like, no, I've been in this spot before and I know how to get out. So I'm here to help you get out. So that's kind of like the approach that I like to take when I'm working with people for sure.

Alissa: That's amazing.

Hilary: Umm, looking at the long term, if somebody in recovery and I mean when it comes to an addiction, I'm assuming this is something that that they have to be vigilant with for the remainder of their life. So what? Does the long-term recovery look like for most people? What do they need to continue To do or not do?

Kyle: Continue to change behaviors for sure. I look like I just hit July was my 10-year clean mark and I, the thing is is like at 10 years compared to 24 hours. It's all the same. So, we take it one day at a time. Like I look at it now. I'm like, holy crap like. The last 10 years of my life have been completely different than the 14 years before then. But as far as longevity, we know that if you can hit a year clean. Don't quote me on this exactly, but roughly the chances of long-term recovery hit about like increase about 70% a year clean.

Alissa: Wow just to get to that year mark

Kyle: Yeah. And then something I always teach people is it's called the rule of 21-90. So, 21 days creates a habit. 90 days creates a lifestyle. So if you can continuously hit that, I always tell people give me 90 days you give me 90 authentic days of working this. And let's see where you're at.

Hilary: Not just mediocre work, but yes, putting that best.

Kyle: So those milestones that 90-day milestone to me is a huge and the other is that year. Because if we can start to create a different lifestyle. Then we get away from all that stuff that we were hanging on to. That was kind of like dragging us down a little

Alissa: So what can we do as like either friends or families while they're in that process of trying to get to, you know, a year mark or a 10 year? Or 50? You know what can we do to help in that road of recovery?

Kyle: One thing like this is where some kind of boundaries come into play too, but like I refer to as like an. Attaboy. Hey, you're doing great, right? Like, validating when they're doing good, but making sure this is the boundary is like making sure you're not validating when they're not. OK, because we don't want them to kind of like slip back into those old behaviors, but validating them in the times, like, hey, you're doing OK if they mess up like. OK. Like what do we need to do to move forward from this. Like and I try to teach people the difference between the laps and a relapse. The lapse is a lapse in judgment, so we have like a one time little slip up, but we can learn from that and we can move forward from that or relapses that we continually do it over and over and over. So a lot of the times we hit that lapse and we feel discouraged and self-destructive and have those kind of thoughts, when in reality, if we catch ourselves involvement, if we have great support, then we have someone there to help us with that. OK, what did we learn from it? What did you do right? What did you do wrong? What can we do better. OK, let's go. Let's keep moving.

Hilary: Because they're already disappointed enough in themselves, they don't need somebody to make them feel worse.

Kyle: Yeah, I always tell. People, nobody can beat me up more than me.

Hilary: That's great advice. I love that. Man, OK, I am loving this and I probably disregarded every of the questions I gave you. I'm sorry about that.

Kyle: Yeah, you know, it alright.

Hilary: But as we, yes, I tend to do that,

Alissa: It's OK. Do you need me to print them out?

Hilary: But let me just kind of as we kind of wrap up our time file, any last closing advice that you would offer on behalf of somebody involved in some substance abuse addiction or somebody on the outside? Any final thoughts you would share?

Kyle: Umm for both sides is don't give up hope to those suffering attitudes out there right now. Like don't give up hope. Understand there might be some fear that's involved of getting clean, and I can promise you that on the other side it's so much better. There's a saying too that I kind of I like to go along with this saying is that I used to be a dope less or no a hopeless dope fiend and know I am a dope less hope friend. So staying on like hanging on that hope. And same goes with the people who are out there, who are having a loved one is like there is hope. Like do not give up hope. Just continue to love them. Don't enable them finding that balance and in that boundary of like showing love and not enabling them. But don't give up hope.

Hilary: Would you suggest that for a family member who has a friend involved in an addiction, should we be seeking out therapy for ourselves as outside? Of maybe those support groups?

Kyle: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. I would. I would say get into a therapist and start going through your own stuff because one thing that we. Well, I teach and we know about traumas. The definition of trauma is a deeply disturbing or distressing experience. That's pretty subjective. Because what's traumatic for you isn't necessarily traumatic for me, but watching a loved one go through this self-destructive cycle, that’s trauma. So being able to work through that trauma on your own as they're going through their own thing too. So that everybody can benefit from therapy.

Hilary: Yes. So remind us as we close shop for today, what is your agency you're involved in?

Kyle: ORA counseling. Our numbers 435-279-6036.

Hilary: I was like, that's the true question.

Kyle: And I'm at their North office, but we do have a lot of new therapists there right now. So there's openings for A lot of differently, very diverse set of clinicians like you said.

Hilary: Perfect, perfect

Alissa: Now, do you have any other like resources that you want to share? We can definitely put in the show notes.

Kyle: Yeah, I will. I'll give you these two. The Russell Brand and Johann Hari that I talked about and there's another one too in trauma that refers to the Aces. Sure, you guys are familiar with Aces, so there's but it doesn't necessarily have to deal with like substance use, but understanding like helping other people understand what these aces.

Hilary: Are so powerful to know that. Well, Kyle, we appreciate you so much for being here and for what you do for. Our community. Like what a fantastic resource we have to offer for the people and our value. So thank you for taking the time to share this information with us. Information that we all need to know, so we appreciate it. And thank you to our listeners. As usual for being here and for tuning in, and we hope to continue to. Have you involved in and listen in the weeks and months and years to come. So thank you, Alissa, for being here.

Alissa: Thank you. Maybe I'll be back. Maybe I won't. We don't know.

Hilary: If Jen gets her voice. She'll be back if not. We'll see this cute lady right here.

Kyle: She has her voice.

Hilary: Thanks all for being here. Have a good day.

Jen: Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly – The Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is TheFamilyPlaceUtah.org. If you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes, we'd love to see you.

Subject Resources: 1. https://youtu.be/PY9DcIMGxMs?si=XrPNm62RcT2AmKr3 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX9ZxIMSQg0 3. https://youtu.be/95ovIJ3dsNk?si=eboZ8qVh5kwrT1fA 4. https://goldenstepsrecovery.com/ 5. https://www.aa.org/alcoholics-anonymous 6. https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-hickman-lcsw-65a521135 7. https://www.oracounseling.com/ Subject Warnings: Substance use and abuse. Contact us: -Email us questions or topic ideas: parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org -Record questions here: https://anchor.fm/theparentsplace -Parent's Place FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/196037267839869/ - https://www.facebook.com/jendalyTFP Music by Joystock

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