Holidays can be a very magical time with holiday traditions, spending time with family and friends, and many other things. However, we often forget that with holidays does come grief. Grief changes a lot of things in our lives including the Holidays. So how can we mange and cope with these feelings of grief in our selves or how to help others during this time? KJ, an LCSW, is here with Jen and Hilary with great advice for people who are grieving and those who are supporting someone that is grieving.
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Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with. Hilary and Jen.
Hilary: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast. Thank you all our wonderful audience for listening in. We have a special guest with us today and we're so excited to have her here to share her expertise on a topic that I don't necessarily think that we cover as often as we should, so this is KJ Reid and KJ, I'll let you introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about you and what you do and where you're joining us from.
KJ: OK. Thanks for having me. So yeah, as you said, I'm KJ and I am a LCSW, licensed clinical social worker and I'm a therapist and I have been a therapist for about a decade now. Which is kind of mind blowing, but I got my masters in social work and from there I worked at a residential treatment center and inpatient program for teenage girls. And I worked there for about 5 years. And then I started my own private practice, Reid counseling services, and I have a small case load of about 10 clients, and I do that in the evening. So, I'm a stay-at-home Mom. I have two little kids. And so, it's been kind of a nice balance of using different parts of my brain throughout the day, so it's been really good so. Yeah, I'm excited to chat today.
Hilary: Yes. And we've talked about this before, but I am, I am in the same boat as moms slash employees slash all the things and it's wearing all those hats can be a tricky thing to juggle so I get it. And I'm assuming there are individuals out there that that through this podcast may connect with you and think, oh, I want her as my therapist. Are you, do you have a wait list? Do you have openings at this point? Who can access your services?
KJ: Oh yeah, so I am licensed in Utah, so I can I meet virtually with clients who live in Utah and I typically work with adult women who are kind of navigating, I would say, like, transitions in life, maybe so like becoming a mom, or divorce or dating or college. Just kind of navigating all those different stages of life, maybe experiencing some anxiety and depression, some mental health struggles that they want to work through, I use the lens of attachment a lot in my work. So yeah, I can be reached at reidcounselingservices@gmail.com and. I do openings, so yeah.
Hilary: Perfect. And we will make sure that we include KJ's contact information in our show notes for our audience just so that you have that you have that as a resource. And man, I'm thinking to myself as you are providing that explanation. We need to have you on the podcast to discuss those transitions, because that topic would be a powerful one to go over and one that we have yet to cover here, but we actually have a different topic in mind for today, so we'll save that for a later day. So, I'm excited to discuss the topic we have at hand today given that we are gearing up for the holiday. All things crazy, all things you know, celebration. I would make the assumption that for most people, the holidays bring a lot of joy, a lot of excitement, a lot of opportunities to connect with friends and with families, and with coworkers, with their partner. And but we're actually going to talk a little bit about grief and how many also, experience grief through the holidays, which, like I said, I don't think we think about that enough. So, I'm excited to talk, talk a little bit about this so. Let's start out with maybe just some basic information on grief in general, and then we can maybe kind of take the route of specifically how that affects us during the holidays. So, what should we know about grief?
KJ: OK. Yeah. I think that's a great place to start. I think probably the first thing to understand is that grief is experienced differently by everybody. There's not kind of one process that everyone can expect to go through and it won't look the same for everyone. So, I think kind of a lens to look at it through though, is the stages of grief. That's a pretty common lens to look through. It's pretty common framework for it. So, Elizabeth Kubler Ross, she identified the stages of dying, and then David Kessler, who worked with her, adapted them into the stages of grief and grieving. So those are the ones that we've typically heard about. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. And then he added meaning. And he in his work has kind of talked about how that's it's not a road map for grieving. They're not linear. You don't start with denial, then move to anger and I think that could bring comfort to people to be like, oh, I'm checking off the boxes. I went through denial check. I went through anger check. When is this going to feel better? But the stage is kind of come and go. And I think what is important to know about grief through the holiday season is that it can be even more accentuated. There can be more triggers you could experience going from stage to stage more rapidly. And kind of feeling like you're maybe going through the whole cycle again. So, I think that that's just some important things to know and I think one of my favorite quotes about grief is that the depth of pain is a mirror for the depth of love. So, grief is kind of that expression of love. Maybe you've lost someone, and that is really painful. And it's kind of a mirror for the love that you had for them.
Hilary: That is a cool quote. I love that I had to stop and process that for a little bit, but that is really cool. We've heard this grief process before and I know that some and you know, it's funny that you say that because I am very much one of those people that is a box checker. I love to be able to say the task is done, check ,cross it off, do not have to think about it again and move on with my life. Like and so I can see me wanting to embrace that mindset of like I took that step right. I shouldn't have to think about that again. With acceptance being one of those stages like. Does the grieving process ever end? Or what does that look like when it comes to time frame.
KJ: Umm, that's a really good question. I mean, we would love for it too. I would hesitate to say that it does. I feel like it can be kind of a lifelong thing, but it just looks different and it feels different. Time can be a big factor in that, like how far removed you are from a situation or event but I think it's kind of going to be something that's like a bit of a constant companion because to be human is to feel and all feelings and emotions aren't like the feel-good emotions, right? Like there is pain and heartache and grief is definitely a part of those feelings that come with just existing and having relationships. So yeah, being a box checker. With grief doesn't really work and that’s what's hard about it, but yeah.
Jen: So, my husband lost both of his parents right around the holidays, and it's been about no, I would say about 10 years and he still has a really hard time. The holidays are horrible. And I we've only been married for almost 7 years, so I've only. Not only, but I've dealt with it for the last 7 holiday seasons. Because he does get so stuck in that grief and I don't know what to do for him, so I tend to disconnect from him during that time. So, what can people who are having to work with or be with people who do deal with this grief on a regular basis. I mean, I don't know what to do for them and I don't know what to do for myself.
KJ: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a really good question and I think my answer, just from my experience or just working with people who are dealing with this, is to kind of surround those people with love as much as you can. And I would say the first step to that though is taking care of yourself. So, what are the things that you need to do to have that self-care or kind of you know, foster your emotional climate so it is in a place where you can care for someone you can care, give you can serve, you can support, you can be with them and their grief. So first, taking care of yourself, prioritizing your mental health and then surrounding them with love. And I think how that can look through the holidays is maybe try continuing traditions. Because I think yes, that can feel different and it can feel hard. But it can also feel consistent and expected, and it can feel really reassuring to people, especially if you're like, if it's a parent child dynamic. Like having some of those things going that the child can like cling to and. Be like, oh, this is an expected tradition. This is an expected thing we do like my life isn't completely changed because of whatever it is that we're going through. And then I think it's working on holding maybe conflicting emotions together like. Yeah. The holidays are kind of this magical happy time and you can feel that at certain points when we're engaging in these traditions or being together and they can also feel really hard and it can be a time of sadness and pain if you're missing people that are not there or you're grieving the loss of your job or a divorce or whatever it is that you're grieving. And so, I think kind of just allowing for those moments of togetherness. Because grief can really hit in the quiet moments. So I think. It's not that we want to completely avoid grief, obviously, but you know, being aware of someone in those quiet moments when kind of all the magic dies down things have come to a close at the end of the day, or whatever it is and just being there for them, I think.
Jen: Thank you. Yeah, it's hard sometimes because I do tend to disconnect from him and I’m like OK, I can't handle that anymore, so I'll deal with that on your own and that's not the best way to handle it so great advice. Thank you.
Hilary: And I'm making the assumption, Jen, I'm going to create a life for you right now, but like with the situation similar to Jens, let's say that one individual still wants to go out and do all the things and go to the parties and visit the neighbors and have all the social events, yet the other individual says no. I want to stay home. Are we OK to still live that part of our lives? Should we try to drag them along? Should we let them be with what they want? I mean where you have maybe conflicting feelings in regards to a family or a partnership. What's the best suggestion with that?
KJ: Yeah, that's a really good question, I think openly communicating about it, not being afraid to talk about what's going on and what people are feeling and you know, are you feeling grief about XY and Z? Are you struggling with this? What? What do you need? And if they're like, I just want to stay home. And not go you know you could ask them some more questions about that and explore that with them. What would it be? Like if we went out and did this thing and would it be a good distraction? Because, you know, distraction can be big with like, depression or anxiety it can. It can really help for a time and so kind of exploring that with them and maybe finding a middle ground like, OK, if we don't go do this thing, then let's plan on doing this. I just think it boils down to communication not being afraid to talk about it, like talk about the elephant in the room and see what can kind of come of it. I when I was thinking about this topic it made me think of the movie Dan in Real Life. Have you guys seen that?
Hilary: The one with Steve Carell, right, is. That who it?
KJ: Yeah. Yeah, he's in, like, a serious role. I haven't seen it in a few years. It's one of my favorite movies, but if I'm remembering correctly, he's a widower and he's a father to three, like teenage girls, and he's going to like a family reunion type thing. And so, you kind of watch him, like, grieving throughout this process, like engaging in the typical things with his family and then kind of pulling away with some things and like isolating and, like, being kind of in his grief and then kind of reuniting and allowing them to see his grief and his pain and what he's going through, while he's also just kind of moving through the storm and continuing. So, I just think that's kind of like a representation of what grief can look like during kind of family gatherings and holidays. And things like that, it can kind of change and shift, and hopefully people can meet you where you are and allow for some space at moments and then kind of really wrap you up in love and togetherness and support you at other times so. It's just kind of an ever shifting process. I feel like in year to. Year Jen, you may have seen like it can kind of be different year to year, like how it presents itself and maybe what stage you know, your family, your husband's in at that point. So.
Jen: Yeah, it definitely has changed over the years. When we first got married, it was, you know, sleeping pretty much through the holidays. And then now it's just kind of being grumpy. And yeah, there's still some of that sleeping in there, but the grumpiness is definitely what's taken over and not wanting to participate in family things. And so. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard and it's hard to explain that to my parents and my, the rest of my family because. I'm just thinking of my other siblings and their in laws. They haven't lost them. They're still all living. My parents, parents are gone, but they've grieved very differently so they don't understand him and the way he, he grieves, and that it just it keeps coming back, year after year.
KJ: Yeah, yeah. And stuff tough on you too for like figuring out how to kind of shift and navigate it as it changes.
Jen: A manual would be nice right?
Hilary: If could create that we'd make millions, right?
Jen: But I think that like with my husband, there's within my family there's a stigma of what he is grieving. What other kind of stigmas are out there?
KJ: Ohh yeah. Yes I think for me, it's kind of those phrases of, like, get over it, be strong, move on. Kind of like don't show weakness. I feel like those are pretty common like misconceptions or stigmas like the holidays are magical. Just kind of shove that away for now. You don't need to be feeling that no one wants to see you be sad or like I'm angry and sad, and I shouldn't be. So, I think you can get that from within yourself as the person who's grieving, like kind of some of those intrusive thoughts and, you know, maybe some beliefs happening about how you should be doing or how you should be experiencing the holidays. And then, I think just kind of that societal pressure of kind of just getting over it or shoving it aside because you don't want to be the cloud. Or the Eeyore of the holiday season like. Just need the buck it up and you know be fine. So that's what I would say.
Hilary: Well, I'm just thinking. I'm thinking of myself and thinking of my feelings towards the holidays. I love, I love the holidays. I look forward to them all year long and it brings a lot of excitement and joy. But with the holidays comes a lot of stress. There's a lot of events, there's a lot of things to plan. There is the stress and load of the financial burden that comes associated with holidays and so and I know there's a lot of people that enjoy visiting family and others. That do not look forward to that aspect of the holidays. So I'm thinking of just the stress that. I have when it comes to holidays. And then you add upon that, somebody that has dealt with something traumatic in their life and it's making me realize, wow. Like I definitely have not provided the empathy that I have needed at times for those that are struggling. Because you're right, I think I see that stigma in myself of, it's Christmas. It's magic, it's glorious. Everybody loves this month, right? Why wouldn't you love this month? And so, I can see this that you're talking about this. How that just adds an extra layer to what we already think about with grief, and then you add on that extra layer of come on, it's Christmas. You should be happy here.
KJ: Yeah, I think. I think you're right, it's the holidays are hard all around for. I mean, they're beautiful, wonderful, right? But they can be hard too for family members that are, you know, trying to make it magical. You know, for you or help people feel the Christmas spirit or the holiday spirit or whatever it is that you're trying to feel in your family and with loved ones. I think a big part of that might be everyone kind of managing their expectations. Like managing expectations of like what can my family handle? What can we do? Do I need to do every single thing to infuse magic into this time of year? Do I need to make the perfectly frosted sugar cookies? Do I need to make all homemade beautiful gifts? Do I need to decorate my house beautifully? Like you see everyone on Instagram doing? And so, it's I think it's just a lot of managing expectations which can go a long way for managing stress, which can go hand in hand with managing grief and kind of working through all that it brings.
Hilary: Yeah, it goes back. To what you were saying earlier when you were talking about, having that ability to take care of yourself, because if I have a partner that's struggling with grief, yet I'm overwhelmed myself by fulfilling all the things that need to happen during the holidays and I'm overwhelmed and I'm anxious I'm not in a position to help that other person. And so yeah, making those realistic expectations so that I can be calm, that I can be available, that I can have the patience needed to provide that listening ear so that I can help that person. I am 100% guilty of doing too much during the holidays and that is something I definitely have to work on and I can, I can see that being a problem for many people.
KJ: Yeah, you want to do all the things, right? You want to, like I said make the cookies or do the Advent calendar or get all the fun books or the beautiful gifts. You know, it's we do it all because we see other people doing it and so they look like they're having a good time. So that would obviously mean that we would have a good time doing that too, right? But it may just welcome more pressure and stress in your life, so it's just kind of like is this a season where right now we need to simplify and we need to pick like a couple of things that are going to be the traditions that we do this year. So that there is some of that grounding of like. And it is the holiday season we acknowledge that. And we're going to engage in some of it, but we're really picking and choosing what we're doing this year and that is so valid.
Hilary: I'm curious because I can see if you've seen this in your professional work. I can see I love this idea of continuing traditions and you know, strategically picking traditions that you can continue to follow through. With are there cases where it's healthy for some people to be like. I'm thinking Speaking of movies, I'm thinking of that Christmas movie Christmas with the Cranks. I think is what. It was where they were like bad Christmas. We're going to the Bahamas. Yeah. Would it be healthy in some positions to say, you know what, we're just going to leave. We're going to go on a trip. We're going to go somewhere warm and. Kind of forget about the holidays for a while. It would that be a healthier approach for some?
KJ: Yes, and when we talk about like grounding and using traditions as kind of that grounding factor, what traditions do as they bring us together with, like a shared experience or activity? So, it's something that, like, brings everyone, wraps them up together in love. And it doesn't have to be typical things like if it's an experience where you do something completely different and create a new tradition, wonderful, but I think it's that sense of togetherness. We're not alone in this. We're here for each other. That is, at its core, what is grounding especially to children who are experiencing grief, it's like we are acknowledging. That this is a time of year where a lot of people are doing a lot of different things and there's things outside of the norm that we don't usually do. Some of the traditions can be painful, and so we're going to kind of pick and choose what we want to do. But I think just the consistency of having something. Is what's important, whether it's like, yeah, we still put up a tree and decorate it together, or it's we go to grandma's house for dinner or, you know, we do decide, you know, let's start a new tradition and go on a trip and. I think what would be cool to do with that is talk about it. Talk about maybe why going on a trip and doing something different would be healthy and fun for the family to do hopefully that makes sense.
Jen: I'm just thinking, what are some other like instead of having my husband be grumpy or someone who may be grieving in a different way. I always think of my stepdaughters and having to go between the two houses for Christmas. You know they're at Christmas Eve with one family and then they switched to the other parents. So you're grieving the fact that you don't have both parents there. What are some things that we can do to help them cope so like coping skills? That they can use to help them in those hard situations.
KJ: I am thinking of two and I'm trying to think of how. You would like teach these to them, without sounding like you're like, doing therapy with them, right. So maybe like modeling it for them or kind of using some of this language when you talk to them about it. But the first one would be like reframing, reframing it. So that's kind of a coping skill where it's like. We aren't taking something that's hard and making it good and shiny and beautiful, right? We're taking something that's hard and it's still going to be hard, but we're looking at it from maybe a different point of view. So reframing that as like we're not with you for the whole time. And it's nice that you get to experience being with multiple people during the holiday. And then the other one I think that can be really helpful is called radical acceptance, which is a distress tolerance skill. And it's a skill that kind of keeps pain from turning into suffering, so we can really easily get stuck into, like, the why me, this isn't fair. I hate this type of, like, cyclical thinking. And this kind of unhooks us from that. It's accepting. Reality not necessarily liking reality, but accepting that it is what it is. And just remembering that phrase, it is what it is. I'm accepting that this is reality. This is how things go. This is how our family has kind of divided up the holidays or how we do things I don't have to love it. But I'm accepting that that is how it is, and I can either, like, ruminate on it and get stuck. And like this is unfair and I can kind of suffer around that. Or I can decide to accept that it is what it is and move through it. So yeah, like I said, it might be you don't really want to sit them down and be like let's talk about radical acceptance. But like, if they're having a hard time about it and kind of venting to you about it. Kind of using your own words to be like you. Know what? You're right. Like this is really hard. It is what it is though, and so how can we kind of move through it and make this, you know the best that it can be or the most positive that it can be so yeah. Hopefully that answers your question.
Hilary: I mean, I think that that's I, I love that idea because I think that is life in general, right? I mean there are so many things in life where we're like, yeah, that's not what I would have chose. But it is what it is and I can take it and I can move forward and I can, you know. Make the best of it if needs be or. Yeah, I can sit and whoa. And so I just think that that's like a good model to live with in general in life understanding that, yeah, so we've talked a lot about. Like the loss of a loved one, potentially causing grief during holidays, are there any other reasons why that we should be made aware of as to why someone might be grieving during this particular time of the year.
KJ: Yeah. And I think a lot of times. They're overlooked. And because I think it can easily be ohh like your grief trump's this kind of grief or it's more valid. You know, if it's something that was hugely traumatic or uprooting to a family and then other things that people might be grieving can kind of be swept under the rug, but. There's a lot of things. That can bring grief, and I think one big one can be maybe. Your life isn't. Looking the way you thought it was going to look at this point in your life so. Maybe you had hoped to be married at this point in your life, or you hope to have kids or you hope to be at this point in your career or something like that. Or maybe you're going through a big life shift like a divorce, or you lost your job, or an opportunity or, you know, things have just not been going the way that you planned that they would at the beginning of last year, like beginning of January, you thought you would be somewhere completely different by December. So, I think those things can loss of friendships like losses that they want. And it's not just because someone passed away, right? It can be a loss of a relationship because of whatever circumstance. So, lots of different things that can be going on for people.
Hilary: OK. Yeah. I don't think we think about those scenarios as often as we do. Maybe just a death in the family and I'm just thinking to myself. I mean, social media tends to be the culprit for most things that we discussed, but the reality is, is I think about social media and at least for me at the stage of life that I am in, I'm not a I'm not an avid social media poster, but what tends to happen is around holidays you've got to make the Christmas Post, right? Like I can go 11 exactly. I can go 11 months of the year and not put a single thing down. But in December, you've got a post and so you put this beautiful picture of your family or your Christmas card, or a picture of the spread of presents that your children received. And I can see that being such a detriment to individuals that are already struggling and then seeing all of these pictures all at once of what seems like a perfect scenario for everyone else but them.
KJ: Hmm yeah. I think it's. A matter of is being on social media at this time of year healthy for you. I was talking to someone. A few months ago. And she basically said she got off social media because she was falling into the comparison trap so much that it was making her feel like her life wasn't good, like it wasn't enough, you know she thought she would be having kids or having a family at this point in her life and so seeing people post that they were getting married or engaged or having kids. It was really kind of just weighing her down. And so she decided to delete all of her social media and she kept it deleted. Because it was just better for her mental health and I was like, wow, that is awesome because they don't feel like that is the path many of us would choose to take, but I was just really impressed by that and I think you can go maybe a less extreme route if it's like, understand your triggers every year I feel triggered at this point in time because of all these holiday posts and everybody posting their highlight reel and it really gets me down. And so, I'm going to mute certain people or I'm just going to delete those apps for the next couple of weeks and unhook yourself from that potential trigger and it'll be OK. Like we can live without social media for forever. If we really need to but I just thought that was cool that she did that was a good lesson for me like. It was good to see.
Jen: The Earth still goes around, even without Instagram.
KJ: Yes, it can be that, like fear of missing out, right? Like, what's everyone else doing but it can also be a way to kind of in like inflict pain. I don't know. There's probably a better way to say that. Like to just wallow and trigger things that maybe you aren't wanting to fill, so just being very self-aware, I think in your consumption of social media around this time of year is important.
Hilary: I'm so I'm still thinking of those other scenarios that you shared. In addition to the loss of a loved one and I'm making the assumption that there might be some individuals that are experiencing grief because of that. But not necessarily know that that's what they're experiencing. And so, like as a friend, as a family member, as a partner, if we, what are some, maybe the potential signs and symptoms that we might watch for to help recognize if someone is grieving?
KJ: Yeah, I think Jens pointed out several like symptoms to look for, umm, sleeping, oversleeping, change in mood, isolating, maybe kind of that, I guess, rejection of wanting to do things that they typically would want to do, like them saying no to things. Or just kind of the rapid change in their emotional state, so, you know, happy sad, you know, snappy, loving, you know, kind of all over the map, they could be cycling through the stages very rapidly, I would say are probably like the primary things that you could notice.
Hilary: Perfect. Well, KJ, I love that we have talked about this topic and I think you have shared so many insightful things that I think many of us have not considered or thought of before. So, as we kind of close our podcast for today, I want you to tell me if you have any final tips, any resources that you could provide to our audience if you could kind of power punch, you know, like that message that you want to send.
KJ: Yeah. OK. I have two main takeaways I guess one might be introducing like a completely new idea. I don't mean to do that like right at the end, but I just thought of I.
Hilary: No, this is perfect.
KJ: So, the first one would be managing expectation. I think that works for if you are the person that is grieving or you are the person supporting the person who is grieving. Managing expectations of what the holidays need to look like or should look like. All those kind of words. Right? And then adapt like do less. If that's what you need to do. Pick a few things that won't stress you out. Focus on things that. You know are important to you and. I just manage kind of what? What stressors you want to take on I guess. And then the second thing. Is allow yourself to feel, and that goes for if you are the one grieving or if you are the one who's supporting it can be frustrating being the caregiver, being the support. It can be hard, and when you're in grief yourself like that is a hard, hard place to be. So I think allowing yourself to feel the ups and downs. And a catch phrase that I love is be the Buffalo and it stems from this idea that Buffalo. Well, we'll start with cows. When cows see a storm coming. They run away from it, so they prolong their suffering because they are in the storm longer. Buffalos, when they see a storm over the horizon, those dark clouds, they run towards it. So, they run through the storm and they get out the other side faster. So, they're in the storm for a shorter amount of time. So, I think. That can directly relate to grief because. You want to be kind of feeling those emotions as they come at you allow yourself to be in the storm and have that kind of pass. Let it wash over you and then you're through the other side. So your day and might be full of hard moments of feeling lonely or feeling that lost feeling that really tangible. Give yourself time to feel it. Sit in it allow it to wash over you, and then you can move through to the other side. Don't be the cow that's running and just pushing it down and keeping it at Bay because you will be running and running and running and exhausted by it. But I think allowing yourself to feel it then also allows you to experience those pockets of joy. Hot sun when it starts rising over the horizon, you start feeling some of those. Joyful moments again in traditions or being with your family being together. So that's those are the two things I would say manage your expectations. And allow yourself to feel.
Hilary: You said it was a Buffalo, which one again?
KJ: Yes, Be the Buffalo
Hilary: That's what I was just thinking, like our theme. Of the day. Perfect. I love it. I love that. Actually, I loved that visual. That was a really cool way to describe it.
Jen: Yeah, I really appreciate that's really helpful. Thank you so much for coming and being with us and talking to us about, you know, it's an important concept or important emotion that lots of people deal with, especially during the holidays. So, thanks for coming and giving us some good advice and some good things that we can help those who are grieving and also help those that are supporting those. We thank you guys for coming and listening and we hope that you remember to be kind and patient with yourself and we will see you back here next week.
Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamily placeutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly – The Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is thefamilyplaceutah.org if you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes. We'd love to see you there.
Subject Resources:
1. https://www.verywellmind.com/holiday-grief-how-to-cope-with-loss-during-a-joyous-time-6503042
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