As every parent knows, our children deal with a lot from school to friends. With all of these aspects of life, just like adults, kids can experience anxiety and that anxiety affects all parts of their life, including school. In this episode we take a dive into this topic With Josh Sullivan. Josh started as a Therapist and a school social worker and now works as an assistance principle at an elementary school. Through his schooling and experience, he has seen how this anxiety has impacted the lives of the students at his school. Josh has so many great tips and advice to help bring parents, teacher, and children together in understanding their behaviors, especially when it is related to anxiety.
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Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen.
Nicole: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast. I'm Nicole, and we have Jen with us today and we have Josh Sullivan, who is a LCSW and assistant principal at an elementary school. He's gonna be talking to us today about anxiety in kids and how to help with that. So, Josh, would you like to introduce yourself some more.
Josh: Yeah, I'm Josh Sullivan. I'm an assistant principal in the Jordan School District. I've been working there for a couple of years. I worked in a charter school as a school social worker and an assistant principal there. And then I made the move to the district. I've been a therapist in LCSW for, oh, geez, it's probably going on 6, 7 years now. I loved working in schools when I was a school social worker. I did some private practice and worked at some practices. But I love school so much that I decided to get into them and start learning how to run them as an administrator. And so I made the switch full time to being an administrator. So that brings me here.
Nicole: Wow, that's an interesting turn. Yeah. Are you liking it?
Josh: It is kind of weird burning things. Oh, I love it. I love working in schools. I mean, there's never a boring day. The stories you come home with. My wife is a 6th grade teacher, so we always have stories to share, but there is never a boring day in a school, especially in elementary school.
Nicole: There is not. My kids. I have 3 girls and the drama that unfolds. Day-to-day.
Josh: Ohh my gosh, yeah.
Nicole: So, what was it that made you want to work in this field as a therapist? As you know, an administrator. What is it that drew you to this?
Josh: When I was doing my undergrad at Weber State, I didn't know if I was a nutrition major for a while. I was in neuroscience. I switched to sports management and I was just trying to figure out like a lot of people in college, what do I want to do with my life? And I took a psychology 101 course and I was hooked. I loved it. I ate it up, and so my undergraduate degree was in psychology. And I thought I wanted to be a therapist. And so I went to the University of Utah and pursued a Masters degree in social work and graduated. Like I said, I did both. I worked in some private therapy practices and then I worked in a school as a school social worker and I loved working in a school. I loved the things that we were able to deal with. So, it's kind of odd to say, but I love the issues we got to deal with you know helping kids in the school Environment. Elementary School is an interesting time because that's where kids really start to discover the world outside of their parents, and it's kind of funny if you're at the grocery store or lagoon or something like that. And a kid comes, comes running up to you and, Oh my gosh, Mr. Josh, like, good to see you and their. Parents are like who do you know that we don't? And so I just I was hooked on working with the kids. On day one. And so I realized over time that I love working in school so much, I wanted to do it full time, and so I switched over to administration and went to SCU and got a master's degree in educational administration. But, I mean, there's not a day that goes by where, even as an administrator, you don't use those kind of elements of therapy or skills that you've learned in dealing with the kids because there's a need. You know, there's like, an there's an epidemic or a pandemic. I don't know the difference of anxiety in our schools and those kids need the help. They really do.
Jen: Yeah, I'm thinking I'm like academic or like going into administration for education. Sounds like a tough role and probably one I don't want because there's a lot of paperwork.
Josh: There is, yeah.
Jen: But I'm just thinking what a great combination to have your degree in social work and then to be a principal. Because there's, I feel like it's getting a lot better, but there has been that, you know, school, we deal with school things. But really understanding that home creeps into school all the time and what those kids experience at home affects how they do in school. So, I think like you're the perfect combination.
Josh: Yeah, it's kind of unorthodox. Most people who are principals or assistant principals, they were teachers. I had worked in education in different capacities, but never as a teacher. And so I'm one of the few who doesn't have that traditional background and it is interesting because a lot of times we'll talk about teaching backgrounds. And I'm like, I don't. I don't have that background. But I do know a lot more about special education or a kid who's dealing with anxiety and things like this. I understand what that means and the ramifications in school which are long lasting socially, emotionally, academically, and so it definitely is beneficial to have that. Of, you know, bringing that to the table and helping these kids and teachers function in a school environment.
Jen: So, with that, what kinds of things or how is anxiety affecting the kids in the school system.
Josh: That is a good question and it's, I mean, there's a million different answers. How is it affecting them in all of the ways? You know, you've got some kids who they deal with, some small levels of anxiety, but they're still able to function pretty well. And then you've got some kids, unfortunately, that it almost cripples them. You know, they're not able to come to school or if they come to school, they spend a lot of time crying and just trying to deal and cope with that anxiety. And so it's ever present. And recently there's been a lot of funding that's gone into school psychologists and counselors and social workers and making sure those resources are more readily available, and even with that we're dealing with some issues that you know, unintended consequences. But there's a litany more resources now than there was even five years ago, but let alone 10 years ago. And so there's a lot of options for kids to receive the help that they may need within the school system.
Jen: Yeah. I think after COVID people really recognized that there is a need. COVID really pushed us forward.
Josh: Yeah, I. Yeah, you hear about kind of the COVID affect and a lot of kids who academically struggled during those times, understandably so, and who missed a lot about social engagement. Sometimes it can be overblown, sometimes it's spot on it. It had an effect whether we like it or not. It definitely had a significant effect. And so. But I think kids are getting a lot of the help that they need nowadays with the additional resources that are being pooled.
Nicole: I've noticed even at my girls school like there is more of a mental health focus and you know they were able to turn a classroom. I think it was a classroom into a calming room. And kids who are experiencing high levels of stress or anxiety are able to ask for a break and go there and talk with, you know her name, Miss Jackie but. You know, one of our behavioral. Oh, oh. Oh, my goodness. What are they called?
Josh: I mean, it could be a number, it could be a behavior technician, it could be a school counselor or a social worker. There could be litany
Nicole: Yeah. A litany of people who run it. Yeah. So one of those people, they can go in there privately and talk and just, you know, have that support and that calm area to be in. Have you noticed more of a push for you know, that kind of thing and more of a focus on mental health in schools?
Josh: Most definitely. And I think the conversation ultimately goes to just being aware of it, right, rather than the old school punitive approach of a kid is maybe acting out. We're asking more the question “why” right, kids are going to act out. We're going to deal with X amount of kids just making poor choices. That's part of life. But, you know, there's so many reasons why behind human behavior. And so having options and just asking the question instead of coming down on a kid and asking, you know, OK, are they hungry? Are they tired? You know, did this kid have something to eat? Did they have? Are their parents getting divorced? What do we know about their home life just being having that perspective of there's a lot more that goes into the why behind a kids behavior than just one simple thing? Oh, they're choosing to be a bad kid, or they're choosing to act poorly. Sometimes kids make poor choices, but there's a lot that goes into it. And so, I do see an increased awareness of. Asking that question of why, you know, why are kids acting the way they are and then how what can we do to help rather than just punitive consequences.
Jen: I just. I'm just thinking that's where parents come in. I mean, it's really. My sister is a second grade teacher and she's like, I would much rather know what problems the kids are having or if parents are going through a divorce. You don't tell me to tell me everything. Just let me know that that's going on and that's probably why this student is acting out. She says that way then. And I can address that then, thinking that he's just being a little stinker and acting out because he's a kid.
Josh: Yeah, that perspective is so important for teachers to have of just. Yeah. Again, you don't need to know all the ins and outs or the intimate details, but just having the perspective of what's going on in a kids life, that general understanding and that goes, that goes a long way and the kids may not be able to consciously recognize or appreciate what's going. On but they feel. It right, they know how people feel about them. They're incredibly intuitive. Maybe more so than it builds about that, but they have that feeling of how they're being perceived and treated. And so, when their teachers or school staff have that understanding, it goes a long way, even when they're out there and well, especially when they're at their worst.
Nicole: Yeah, one of my favorite things to remember is all behavior is a communication, right? So, what are some things that you can do in a school setting to help alleviate some of this anxiety that children might be feeling.
Josh: That is a really good question. We have that conversation with teachers a lot about. We don't really want to approach this from an angle of and, this is, I'm constantly guilty of this of fixing it right because one a lot of times you can't. Even if you want to, but fixing it just implies I don't know. We're just looking at this through the wrong lens. And so, the biggest thing that I feel we need to do is really connect with parent. There is a huge need for parents to take the lead role in their children's mental health care and dealing with not just anxiety but with any issues that come up. And so instead of trying to solve things in house, hey, we have a litany of resources and things we can do, but we've got to be working hand in hand with the parents, first of all, from a, you know, making sure the parents are informed and they're aware of what's going on in their kids, education and lives. But also just they're the parent knows the child best and that parents intuition is often right, you know, and we want to work together on that. And so if it's putting, you know, from seeing the school counselor to little token economies for behavior and things like that, it's so important that the teachers and the professionals and the school are working hand in hand with parents, parents. A lot of this time may feel exasperated, or I don't have the answers. I don't know what to do. And that's fine, but you still are the expert with your child and we need you. We need to be reaching out to you and working hand in hand because. The parent, the parent, is the expert. They know best. They really do.
Jen: I think for me that's a really important part because parents don't think that they. They have that expertise, so they look outward, but really, they know their child the best and what's best for them.
Josh: Yeah, that was something. When I worked as in private practice, I loved working with kids and we would make some great progress. But overtime I realized more and more. I want to work with the parents and it got to a point where I actually wouldn't see a child without seeing. Their parent with them sometimes you have parents who would bring their kid and kind of OK, fix my kid, and then a lot of times you'd have parents who. It's a tough spot, you know, when your child is suffering, you don't know what to do. That's the worst spot to be in as a parent. But working with the parents produce so many more dividends than only working with the child. Right. And sometimes we would actually develop treatment plans almost for the parents, right? OK. Because they know what their kid eats. They know how their kid sleeps. They know who their kids spends times with, especially at the elementary age, right? Your depth of knowledge with your child will far surpass anything that I can do in an intake with your child. I can develop a great relationship and we can see some success, but I have to have that parent be an integral piece of the therapeutic process and I can share with you my clinical knowledge and expertise, but Mom or dad like you're driving the bus. I'm just kind of along for the ride and maybe I can guide you a little bit. But you're the one in charge.
Nicole: Yeah, I definitely have had a lot of experience advocating for my kids in this realm. And just like in special Ed. But just being that advocate for your kids is huge and working hand in hand with the teacher and having open communication. And it's so valuable because you're right. Like you as a parent know your child the best and you know what's gonna work for your family. So, is there is there ways that you would suggest? To have a parent advocate for their child. Like is there is there a good way to start that process?
Josh: Yeah, I think, I mean when you're working or trying to advocate for your child trying to sum up, you know, what is what do I want? What's the outcome? I would like my child's anxiety to be better about school. I would like them to receive academic help, right. Reach out to the teacher, reach out to the administrator and go in with the perspective of we all want the same thing. And I know sometimes people have been frustrated with schools, especially through COVID. I get it. There's been some damage done to the public education system and the teacher parent relationship. Yep, but going and understanding everyone really does want the same thing. We want your kid to be successful and so keeping that in mind, but then also valuing the perspective that the teacher has, the parent is the expert, but also that teacher and the school social worker, whomever has a very unique perspective on how your child is behaving and the symptoms they're seeing. And so just going in with the perspective that we're on the same team. We all have something to bring here going in with that end goal in mind, I would like my child's anxiety to be better. I need help with reading. There's something going on at recess that I need help with, right? Trying to. If we're trying to change a behavior and therapy, we really kind of zero in on the behavior and what are the functions of that behavior? And so if you wanna advocate for your child, what does the outcome look like? And that's how you go in saying this is this is the outcome that I would like how do we get there? Some parents, like you mentioned, are very knowledgeable about the world of special education and all these things. A lot of parents aren't. They have no idea what these acronyms and alphabet soup means, and that's OK we tell parents all the time, especially in that SpEd IEP world like it is a language all its own but you are in charge and if you don't understand something, it's actually our job to explain it to you. We have to make sure that you understand these things. So that's a big part of advocating too, is. And it's hard as human beings. Sometimes we feel maybe silly if we need to ask a question or don't understand something, but ask those questions. That's what we're there for, is to make sure that you understand and are an integral part of whatever it's happening from just treating some basic anxiety to something like an IEP.
Nicole: I love that. Thank you. What are some? So, anxiety is like a huge word that we're hearing a lot lately.
Josh: Yeah.
Nicole: But what does that look like? I feel like they're it's such it's so all-encompassing anymore that. There's people are like, well, this is anxiety and this is anxiety. But what might you see in a child? And I know that it looks different for everyone, but what? What are some things that you might be seeing at home and noticing about your child that maybe this does need some attention?
Josh: That's a great question. I think one of one of the places I start is what anxiety isn't right for better and sometimes for worse. The pendulum of awareness of mental health has swung very far in the last 10 years, and sometimes we definitely see people saying I have anxiety or I have this or that when it's just not the case. That's part of life. The first day of school is going to be stressful. Being nervous, sometimes for a test or a race. That is normal. And so, sometimes teaching kids that's actually not anxiety, right. Sometimes life is stressful and we have to adjust to certain things. But to answer your question, when does it become something where, like, hey, I wanna. I'm worried about this. A hallmark for me for kids elementary age was the what if questions. I had a kiddo years ago. Mom, what if there's a shark in the swimming pool? What if there's a volcano in Salt Lake City? What if? What if? What if those? What if questions again and again and again and the parent being a good parent, they engage in the conversation. They answer the question. Well, there can't be all. They're gonna be volcano here. A shark can't be in your swimming pool, right? Those things aren't going to happen. But those questions wouldn't go away coming back and back and back. And then they would find new things to worry about. And so something we explained to the parent was it could be the color of the paint on the walls. Like, this is anxiety. They're going to find something to be anxious about and they're going to bring it for you and so that is definitely some of. Those what if questions that are extremely illogical that keep coming, keep coming, keep coming, not just a one time thing. A kid asking if they're going to the doctor. Am I gonna get a shot? Totally normal. But if they go to the doctor, they don't get a shot and they're waking up at night asking this question. It's kind of a frequency and duration is the answer. Especially with those. What if questions and they're very logical and they keep coming back. That to me is an interesting hallmark that you're not gonna see in the in the DSM or a diagnosis or diagnostic criteria for child anxiety as those frequent irrational questions they're bringing up to their caregiver.
Jen: I'm just thinking of my stepdaughter. When she was. She's 17 now, so she was probably about 11-12 years old and. Her anxiety came out in a completely odd way that I'm like. I would have never guessed that was anxiety, but her energy would go from really low to really high and she was goofy and silly and laughing. Like just almost uncontrollable laughter. And that's the way that her anxiety exhibited itself like we thought she was just, you know being over active or whatever the case may be, and we're like, OK, you take it down from this to you're at a level 17, bring it down to level 10 here because we're all going nuts, but and none of us realize that that was her being anxious about what was going on in the situation we were in.
Josh: Yeah, it's really interesting how anxiety can manifest so many different ways. I see the questions a lot, and that's something, oh, man, every day at school, I'll meet with a kid and talk about we're worried about XY or Z. But you know, those levels of energy, how they're feeling about mom and dad, how they're eating, how they're being able to pay attention in class. Those can all be symptoms of anxiety. Or they can be symptoms of something else, but there can be a litany of ways that anxiety is going to manifest in kids. And again, going out to parents. Parents know best. So that's where you have to look for those. Hey, this is a little bit outside the norm or maybe. What I've been seeing before, because maybe somebody at school and a new year is not gonna realize that, cuz that's the new norm for them. But the parent will see something that's different and manifesting in a different way.
Nicole: Yeah, my middle daughter. I remember she started picking the paint off her wall. Because she was just so anxious about school and just a lot of things. And that was out of the norm. Like, why? Why are you picking the paint off the wall? Like, let's talk about this, what's going on. And it was just a way that she could focus her anxiety into something else. Ruined our walls, but we were able to, you know, like that was a that was definitely something that I could see and notice was different. Whereas sometimes you can't see that anxiety and it's just kind of built up inside them. Yeah, I think that's almost harder because it's. It's hard to know what to do and what they're feeling, and anxiety is a just a beast. I've always struggled with it and it's yeah, it's really hard and it's hard to guide your children through it too. What are some good tips to help guide your children through anxiety?
Josh: Such a good question. I'm going to focus on one very specific one. And like you said, it's such a broad topic. If there was a magic pill or solution, right, we do it and there's not. You know, your child is unique and your kids are unique. My kids are unique. And so, the answer is never gonna be the one and the same. And there still are kind of principles that apply no matter what. I start with the basic. Of hey, are we getting enough sleep? How's our nutrition? How's our exercise level? What is our screen time use look like? That's a big one for me. Just kind of the basic things where I don't think for example screen time is causing anxiety but a lack or you know, excessive screen time for the developing brain there are correlations there. Just a simple lack of sleep is not going to cause anxiety, but anyone who has kids, they know when their kid didn't sleep right. It is so obvious and so starting with the foundations, I think is where parents should start. Right? Is go back to the basics. I want to go back to what I mentioned about the what if questions, something that I've realized over the years is when that kid comes to you and they're asking those questions or even in a roundabout way, something I realize is parents a lot of times they engage in those conversations. What you need to realize is if you keep doing that with those irrational and those what ifs. Particularly the same one over and over again. A couple of things kind of happened subconsciously. One that kid realizes I'm getting a lot of attention from my caregiver for bringing this up every time. That is not a conscious thought. It's a very subconscious thought, but it's incredibly reinforcing because those kids, man their parents attention is everything to them. And so, if you and you're being, you know, you're being. A warm validating parent, you're answering that question every single time we're using logic. It makes sense, but it's incredibly reinforcing. The second thing is on a subconscious level, I found. Kids might realize my caregiver is telling me there's nothing to this, so they're telling it's not real, but yet they're willing to spend time on it. And so, in a roundabout way, they're actually validating this fear. I know there can't be a shark in the swimming pool, but my caregiver will talk to me about this all the time, so maybe there's something here again, not really a conscious thought, but kind of a subconscious thought. And so I actually it sounds counterintuitive, but a lot of times, if parents are noticing that, what if game happening. I encourage them to not engage right and a very specific phrase that I've used with a lot of parents is I love you. We've answered that question. We're not gonna talk about that any more. And you just did two things. You validated your child coming to you in a very warm and loving way, but also you said that's not real. That's not something we're, you know, we're spending time on, right. What we can spend time on is. Yeah. If you're dealing with a bully at recess, that is a real problem, right. If you're having trouble understanding what your teacher is teaching, those are the things we spend time on. Right. But is the sun going to crash into the earth like we've answered that question 10 times now, we're actually not going to keep going with that one. And so those irrational anxieties parents get caught up in that what if game and unintentionally, they're validating that anxiety and they're almost reinforcing it. I have a quote in my office that just says time spent thinking about anxiety equals increased anxiety. There are definitely exceptions to that, but as a general rule for kids with those irrational anxieties, it is very true. The amount of time they spent thinking about it, those anxieties are just going to grow. And I tell parents all the time your kids have spent so much time practicing worrying. And they become very good at it. And now they need to practice kind of some of these basic skills of I'm going to write that worry down and save it for later. I'm going to actively choose to focus on something else. And that's hard enough for adults. I, you know, I think about the time I'm anxious. And I'm like, yeah, that's hard. That's a big ask to do. But kids brains are more, you know, flexible and malleable than ours. And so they are. They are able to do this with amazing success, but it starts with a parent, a parent, encouraging their kids to do that is way more effective than me.
Nicole: I love that we always talk about like redirection and parenting and that's that kind of sounds like what you're talking about like, yes, I see this and we're redirecting, we're going to talk about something else. I know even with my own anxiety, if I get my brain to calm down. Suddenly, I'm like, why am I not worrying?
Josh: There has to be something to worry about.
Nicole: So, I yeah, I'm. I can find something, but I love that you said just write it down and we're gonna save that for later. It's something else that my therapist told me was like, maybe set a timer. Like we can. We can talk about it or we can worry about it for this long. And then after that, we're gonna. Do something else. Yeah. So, I love that I love the write it down, save it for later cause that. OK, you're not forgetting what you need to worry about.
Josh: It's a very common intervention that we would use is once a day. You talk to your kids about these worries. The parent that is the only time you can answer the question about the sun crashing. Into the earth or the, you know, the house spontaneously lighting on fire or whatever it is these kids come up with. You have to limit the amount of time you talk about that I read. It's such a good book about John Nash in college. He was a world famous mathematician. He was in the movie a Beautiful mind was about him, and there was such a good quote from that movie where he talked about his hallucinations that he was having. Real percentages in his life that he's got older, he realized. Oh my gosh, these are not real people. He talked about how he'd gotten used to ignoring them and how it's like that with all of our hopes and fears, you have to keep feeding them for them to stay alive. And it's like that with anxiety. It has to be fed to stay alive. So how can we eliminate the fuel for it? Well. Healthy habits like sleep eating technology, but also let's not feed it by spending time worrying over and over and over again and teaching the kids that skill of hey, let's classify this thought. Write it down and we will talk about this later and we follow through on that. But that's the only time me from your caregiver. That's the only time you're allowed to. Think or talk about that. Some parents have found that it seems. Kind of harsh. But it really is teaching and practicing them or helping them practice, not worrying, which is a skill and any skill that you develop is hard. It's not easy. If anxiety we're easy to get over, everyone would. Just do it right. But it's a very effective way, especially with elementary age kids, to kind of tackle those irrational anxieties that we just deal with so much. I had a kid today in tears. He saw a plane in the sky, and that plane had four engines. So that meant that it was a military plane. And we were at war. And I was like, well, let's pause right there on that train of thought. And let's take a deep breath. Right. And he kept asking that question. I was like, hey, you know, we're actually not gonna talk about that anymore. Let's go play basketball. Let's go do this. Let's go do that. So that redirection you talked about is huge, huge, huge, huge. If we can get them away from. That train of thought too.
Jen: I'm also thinking just about writing it down. Older kids, you know, if you write it down and then you write down the answer or parent gives, you can say you. Know what refer back to your book. Go and see what we talked about earlier and you have your answer again so that it's validating. Yes, it is there.
Josh: That's great idea, yeah.
Jen: I need it but I have a place to go to where I can just look at it quickly and know that this is not something that I need to worry about.
Josh: Yeah, that's a great idea. Having that quick reference point to where your parent doesn't have to keep answering that question, it's there. That's great.
Nicole: Now I know with elementary age there's a lot of good strategies that we can use. Like my daughter is on a 504 and we have a whole framework of things that we can do, like she's allowed to have a fidget or take a bathroom break or, you know, extra time on things. There's just, there's a lot of framework that we've built into her life for her success, and I'm thinking like. In her fifth grade class, they had like a calm down corner and they were allowed to go listen to some, like classical music and stuff to, you know, kind of help the brain feel calm. What are some things that you have done at your school?
Josh: At, you know, making sure we are spending time with teachers, developing relationships with those kids, the calm down corner, the Wellness room, the fidgets, all those things. Those can be nice little addendums, but they are all secondary to if a kid feels like my teacher likes me, and they're going to take. With me, it does everything for their anxiety, right? Where is it? Not necessarily. It's a bad teacher, but maybe they just don't gel quite with their teacher or they don't have that relationship. That makes it harder. And so we've done a lot of developments with our staff about you have to invest time with each individual student and obviously teachers are stretched very thin, but just making sure, hey, that kid knows that you've given them a compliment. That kid knows that if they need a correction, that it's firm, but it's gentle. Right. But just taking time to develop, know, know, a fact about your student know one of their interests. No one of their hobbies. Just once in a while, go out to recess with them. Everything is relationships based. We've all heard, you know, if you're looking for a therapist, the number one indicator on if it will be successful is the relationship. It's the same thing with anything. And so if that kid feels that their teacher. Is interested cares about them, which they are, man. Everything else will just not maybe not always go smoothly, but things just have a way of falling into place. So that's something we work a lot with as teachers. Just it's hard with everything that's asked of our teachers, but spend time, right? Invest in your kids and those relationships and those man, those investments will pay will pay dividends when they do have a bad day or they're making poor choices or having a very anxious, you know, anxious week or day. So, time and relationships is what we do with our teachers.
Nicole: I love that.
Josh: And it's not easy. It's never easy.
Jen: But we. Yeah, we know that we need connection and connection goes a long ways.
Josh: Yeah. Yeah. It's hard, especially you know, there are kids who are difficult. My own kids are difficult sometimes, and so asking that teacher on their worst day to still be composed enough to give a compliment or just pause before we overreact it, it's hard. But that's what we're tasked with, right? And in terms of a kid who struggles with anxiety? There's a lot of them and the kids who feel like their teachers will walk through traffic, you know for them. Their anxiety for that school year, OK, they do better. They don't need to call Mom as much. They don't need to. They don't have as many stomach aches and are going to the office all the time versus some kids who have a great teacher. But you know, maybe they just don't have that connection yet. It's harder, and so those connections at school are so, so vital. And so, we work so much with our staff just trying to, hey, connect with those kids somehow, someway, mention their interest and make sure they overhear you complimenting them, right. I don't care if it's a student who's failed every test. Right? I want to hear at least. I want them to know that you've complemented them. So goes a long way.
Nicole: Yeah. And that's something that we talk about a lot with parenting too, right, like. For every correction, we want to give five praise, 5 praises and I think you know, like us doing that as parents at home and teachers being able to do that at school. That's continuity and that's we're working together because that's how our children are successful. Correct. Like we want to be on the same page, we want to be working together with the teachers. Yeah. Yeah. So, I love that. I love. I love what you're doing. That's so great.
Josh: We love it, we love working in the school. It's funny. You mentioned that positive ratio and I'm thinking about my 3 year old and I'm like Uh-oh. Oh, like I got some work today. It's hard. It's hard for parents. It's hard for teachers, but it's true.
Nicole: You know everybody. It is my friend is a behavior analyst and she said put uh bracelet on and every time you see your bracelet and or notice it, give your child a compliment. Don't put a timer on, because then they're gonna start to know. Ohh. When the timer goes off they give me a compliment. Do it so it's random. Yeah. So, I love that. So just like who doesn't need praise, right?
Josh: Yeah, yeah. People thrive on it whether they like it or not. And it's funny as an administrator, as a therapist, a lot of times people mention, like, you're kind of old school, like with how you approach things. And I'm like, I really am. But like, they're like, we talked about, there are kind of universal truths and praise is one of them. We like, like feeling good about ourselves. We like hearing those things. And so, some teachers have mentioned, like sometimes it feels kind of cheesy or forced or fake. And I'm like, that is 100% of fake it till you make it situation right. Part of the reason it feels that way and I feel this way all the time. I'm just like, Nope. OK, but you gotta you gotta practice it. Then it will start to feel natural. As someone who's an expert in being sarcastic and cynical about situations. Like, no. Yeah, it's a skill. Like anything else. You have to practice that positivity in those compliments, and especially with anyone. But with those young kids, man, they thrive off of it. And they'll do anything, they'll do anything for you if they feel like you'll do anything for them?
Jen: So, do you have any resources that parents can use to help them with? If they do have kids with anxiety?
Josh: The biggest thing that I would recommend and I'll give you kind of a broad one and a specific one. The biggest one is just you know be that advocate and what that means is research it right, Google it, find a book. I have no doubt that through your podcast and your organization, you guys have a litany of resources that parents can educate and empower themselves because sometimes parents know how to do that. Sometimes parents don't. And so just research it, right? Just get out there and take a trip to the library or do a Google search. Just start reading about it would be my broad advice. What I did myself was that treatment plan that I would start to implement with parents. I actually turned that into an online course. It's called the Alpine approach, and so parents, I would recommend you check it out alpineapproach.org and it basically teaches you as a parent. This is what a therapist would do and you're guided through it and you're given interventions on how to tailor that for your child. I'm not anti-medication or therapy or anything like that. There's a time and a place for everything. I just think it's a great, hey, this is another option where you can treat your child's anxiety at home. You can, you know, analyze some of these things in addition to or before you try therapy or after you try therapy. Just, you know, change that equation. Try things and educate yourself so we love with the Alpine approach that it it's all about the parents, right? We recognize that as therapists or clinicians or school people, we are secondary. The parent is the captain of the ship and we just want to be a compass or a guide for. That and so I'd recommend parents, you know, read up on the topic, look into research. If you're seeing a therapist recognize, like, hey, this might be a great person for my child. It may not be a great person for my child, but you take the lead role. You're in charge. And if you need help, there's so many people who are willing to help in terms of advice or resources. But you got to take that first step. You got to reach out and look.
Nicole: I love that. Thank you. That's awesome. I love that you've done that.
Josh: Yeah, we have put a lot of work into the Alpine Approach and we hope we hope that it helps some parents out. But also the whole reason behind doing that was just working in schools and seeing and there is a need like there is a constant need. You can't have enough therapists or counselors to kind of meet the need. And even then, sometimes, you know, there's not a good fit or a gel. And so it comes down to the parents taking the lead. People and their kids mental health care, regardless of if you're doing therapy, medication, the Alpine approach like, you know that parent, it comes down to you and that's a lot of pressure, right? But also, hey, there's so much help for you out there. Don't be afraid to reach out and ask your questions.
Jen: And we'll definitely put the link to your to your online class in the show now so people can go directly to it. So, before we end, I would like to know what are your two best tips or advice that you would give our listeners tonight? What's your final two great tips?
Josh: Awesome. When my son was born, we were told that he had a little heart thing going on right, and the anxiety that I dealt with from that was just incomprehensible. It's arguably the worst I've ever felt in dealing with anxiety. And so that has given me such an appreciation of for a parent who, if your child is struggling. Just knowing that like I so many other parents they know, like there is no worse feeling than feeling helpless as a parent when your kids in trouble. And so the first thing kind of mimicking what I said before, take a first step, right? Even if it's just Google searching something. A professor in grad school wrote out this long math equation on the board and then changed one number, and they and his point was, if you change the equation, the outcome has to change. It's a physical law, and so parents, whatever is going on in your child's life right now, if they're struggling with anxiety, mental health, whatever. If you change that equation, the outcome will change now. Sometimes it can get worse, but most of the time, if you're taking a positive change, it's for the better. And so step one is just take some action step if you're listening to this, you're probably well on your way already, right? But just take some action step to change that equation. By researching listening to podcasts, just gaining more information about the topic, right. The second thing, and what I always ask parents to do would be look inward, right? The apple does not fall far from the tree and a lot of kids who deal with anxiety, their parents deal with anxiety, and it can come from, you know, it can be that good old fashioned genetics, it can be learned behavior. It can be a combination of the two and so reaching out parents. Hey, look at yourself. And I've had to do that a lot with myself and my own kids. They're sponges. They're picking up all these habits and things from me. And so they're learning a lot. You know most of the time good, but every once in a while they pick up on one of our bad habits. But if they're dealing with anxiety, there's a good chance maybe, you know, you're dealing with it too, and you need to make sure you take care of yourself or else you're not gonna be able to fully help your child the way that you want to. So let's change that equation by reaching out and educating yourself on something, and then to look at yourself. And get the help you need, right? If you need to see a therapist, if you need to talk to somebody. If you need to just get the help you need, we'll go so far and you don't even realize it, but you're showing to your child. Oh, this is important, right? I, you know, I'm feeling this way. I'm going to get the help that I need and that can empower and enable them to do the same for themselves over the long term.
Jen: That's amazing and great advice. I like the equation. It it's just taking that one simple, changing that one simple number completely changes the outcome. So. I always like visual things and I can visually see that in my mind of Yep, that'll work that way. So yeah, I want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast and I know that this will help lots of parents out there that are dealing with this, and I think it's great to understand what is normal, you know, stresses in kids lives, and that's just, that's OK. It's the out of the norm that we need to be watching for and take care of. So, I want to thank you again for coming tonight and we hope that all of you have enjoyed what we've talked about. And if you have questions, you're always welcome to send us an e-mail. I want to remind you to be kind and patient with yourself and we will see you next week.
Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents at the family place utah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly – The Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is thefamilyplaceutah.org. If you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes, we'd love to see you there.
Subject Resources:
1. Alpine Approach Course: https://www.alpineapproach.org/
2. Child Mind Institute: https://childmind.org/topics/anxiety/
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-Email us questions or topic ideas: parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org
-Record questions here: https://anchor.fm/theparentsplace
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