We have all dealt with difficult behaviors with either our own children or children we know. However, what happens when these behaviors become too much for us to handle? Katie (Endicott) Harris, (Ph.D., BCBA-D, LBA) is here to chat will Jen and Hilary this week about difficult behaviors in children. Finding things that motivate children, changing parenting behaviors rather than children's, and what behaviors mean. Most of Katie's experience is with children with autism and severe disabilities; she has served as a behavior specialist, special educator, coach, special education coordinator, and currently works as an assistant teaching professor in the Applied Behavior Analysis graduate program at Pennsylvania State University.
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Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen.
Hilary: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast. Thank you all for being here and for being our ongoing or even new listeners out there. We're excited to have you. I'm assuming for you parents and teachers out there. You are going to want to grab a, a notepad and a pen or pencil today because you're going to want to take some notes. We have. We have a guest here and I am so excited to hear from her and to be able to take away all of the wisdom that she's going to share with us. So this is Katie Harris, who works for Utah State and Penn State. And she is a behavior analyst, and I'm going to turn it over to her and let her introduce herself. Tell us a little bit about what she does in her education, and then we will introduce the topic at hand for today so. Go ahead, Katie.
Katie: Awesome. Oh, I'm just so honored to be here. Thank you so much. Yeah, I feel incredibly grateful to be in the field I'm in and all along the way in my education, I kind of had people pushing me to be able to do this as a young child, you know? But I was say, I don't want to be a teacher. I don't want to be a teacher and my mother would just giggle and say. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. So I actually got my start in this field at the age of 14. I was able to volunteer at a specialized recreation program. We had kids with disabilities who would come to us for the day and just fell in love with the field and made some contacts with behavior analysts who would come in and give us tips on how to address challenging behavior and build up self esteem in these kiddos. And so I ended up going on and getting my undergraduate degree in psychology because I was fascinated with the brain and mind and behavior. And it was much better, a much better choice than organic chemistry. So yeah, that was a nice job. Then ended up going on and getting employment as a paraprofessional in a school that was all we served all kids with autism. And well, going this is cool and ended up going on and getting my special Ed credential and was also at the same time studying behavior and that, you know, behavior analytic strategies because the school was run by behavior analysts who focused on behavior and communication, verbal behavior, so. At the same time, I got certified as a board certified assistant behavior analyst, and then ended up teaching for a while, getting some great, you know, specialized classroom experience and that very supportive environment. Then ended up going OK. I'm ready for something else and came here to Logan and finished my PhD up at the department here in disability disciplines with an emphasis in applied behavior analysis. And so, I've been able to support the community here. I was a special Ed coordinator. For one of the local districts, and have just basically provided support to another district as a behavior kind of go in and help teachers when they have cases they need support on with challenging behavior, so yeah. And I currently, as you said and so I have a consult team at the Utah State where we support schools and. You know admin and teachers looking at systems organization and challenging behavior. And then I'm also full time faculty at Penn State in their graduate program, teaching applied behavior, analytic classes, and special Ed classes.
Hilary : So, just a little bit busy
Katie: You know, Sometimes I think I should give up something I'm like no I can’t
Hilary: No, no, I can't give up anything.
Katie: Ya, you know I love all of them. I love them.
Hilary: Yeah. So I'm sure that this will depend on locations obviously, but here locally. So I'm assuming that our schools locally, so they have access to these behavior analysts when needs. Be but they. Don't necessarily have one on hand at all times.
Katie: So yes, they do. So I know. You know, we have two districts here. Cache has a team of behavior specialists that support their classrooms. Logan has a certified behavior analyst in their schools. And they've actually just posted a job position for another one, so they do. But as you know. Like, I mean it takes a village and you know, I think.
Hilary: And districts are not small.
Katie: Right ,no, geographically, you know. And so I think you know as many supports as we can provide is, is. A good thing, and we have the university. Here which is a lovely resource. So yeah, I think one of the things about being a behavior analyst is there's always job security. So there's always going to be challenging behaviors cropping up, teachers that need support, families that need support. So yeah.
Hilary: So let's talk a little bit about that term challenging behaviors, because I feel like that. Can be a very broad term. So we talked about that help us to define what some of those challenging behaviors might look like.
Katie: Sure. And this is something that we talked a lot with teachers about and it's incredibly applicable to parents. You know, you have some behaviors that are just irritating and you know, they're not unsafe, but it's just really hard to tolerate them. And then you have behaviors that are incredibly unsafe. They're dangerous. Aggression. Self-injurious behavior. You know, escaping. Eloping. And so it really always depends on the context, because you know when I get called into a classroom and work with the teacher, I'll say like, is this a behavior that you can tolerate or live with or is this just making you absolutely bonkers? And if that's the case, you know, it's always important to that person. And so you want to validate, you know, if they're saying, like, I just can't tolerate this? Great. Let's work on it. And it's the same in the home I worked early on with the family and I will never forget this. They had incredible amounts of support in the home, you know, with, with services and teams. And one of the behaviors this little girl would engage in is they had kind of a house where you could go around the first floor and this little girl would go through and slam every door. But they said that is not a battle we're going to fight right now. We would rather have her be able to access less restrictive environments in the Community. We would rather have her build you know social relationships with friends. We could care less about the door slam and that stuck with me because I thought you know what they have kind of put their boundaries there and said you know what, we're just going to tell her. And she had older brothers and they were on board and eventually she stopped. But you know, that was the behavior that they were like, no, forget it. So, I think that, you know, there's obviously a spectrum of challenging behavior from that irritating and annoying to incredibly unsafe. And so, you know, whatever that student is or that that child is demonstrating in the home or in a school environment. You really just have to kind of get in there. The most important thing, and we reiterate this all the time is what's the function, right? Why are they doing this? And a lot of times that's overlooked, you go right to put the Band-Aid on the situation instead of going. Wow, we need to put some really hard work into this. And it might not be quick and it might not be easy, but you know that eventually if you do it the right way, you can decrease that challenging behavior, yeah.
Jen: So long term, instead of a short term, right? It reminds me of the Iceberg analogy. Here's your big behavior up here, and all of these things below the reason why.
Katie: Absolutely and sometimes the function is easy to, you know, identify. Sometimes it's really tough and so, you know, like you said, the long term, you have to be willing. To get in there for the long haul and I feel really, I've said this before, grateful that I've been trained in the science of behavior analysis because. It's evidence based it's, you know, it's just systematic it we can get in there and do that. So, I tell my graduate students, wherever there are humans, there needs to be behavior analysis because we can solve these things. It just might not be you know quick.
Jen: Yeah. It's hard thing for parents because they learn it overnight. And change doesn't happen overnight. I wish it did.
Hilary: Ya that would make life easier
Katie: And you know, you have to look at the pain point. Parents, you know, you have these behaviors, and I mean, I understand I've worked with so many families in the home and you know. You have these behaviors that are just so hard and they're exhausting and it's easier to give in, so we always told parents, if you're gonna give in. Give in. Early because the longer you try to fight it and then give in that just kind of establishes, you know, for this, this child, oh, I'm going to push it further, yeah. But yeah, so you know the challenging behavior like. They said total spectrum from one end to the other, but all behavior is communication, so we can get in there and go OK, what is this kiddo telling us? You know, we have to get in there with a functional kind of communication method to replace. Not really cruddy, inappropriate behavior.
Hilary: So, I'm just, I'm imagining a parent that. Maybe it's more on that irritation scale, not the unsafe scale at this point. But they're trying to pinpoint that why that you mentioned is that hard for parents because I can see you being so emotionally tied to the situation that it you can't find that way. So. So how does a parent go about doing that and kind of wading through the emotions.
Katie: Yeah. And I always, I admit that you know, I have three children and I call them feral sometimes. And like, wow, they are wild. They're all girls, and they are feisty and sassy, and they keep me on my toes. But yeah, so one of the things is you know that we would tell parents like, let's give you something that is easily identifiable that we can make small baby steps on. You can see your effect, right? You can see that this, this analysis is working. And when parents then get buying into wow, I can make a change. This small thing, you know? Then it's like, OK, let's move on to bigger things. And one of the things that we stress, one of our principles in, you know, applied behavior analysis, first of all, the applied part is we work with humans, right? We're in there making socially significant change. And so we look at, you know, there's some kind of basic functions of behavior. Is it attention maintained? Is it escape maintained and when you start kind of looking at those like, is this kiddo getting attention for it? Well, let's kind of withdraw that attention and start giving attention for doing appropriate things instead. Is it a skate maintain. OK, great. Well, then let's give them a viable, functional way of getting out of it. That's not injuring themselves or screaming or, you know, throwing things or destroying. And so when you kind of start to, you know, I say the detectives, right, because we have to get in there and. OK, this kid is, you know, screaming to get access to the iPad. Or can we then, you know, teach them to ask for the iPad and, you know, wait for one second of quiet. And then get in there and you can start kind of replacing those inappropriate behaviors with something that's functional and it doesn't have to be speech. It can be. A button. It can be a picture, it can be a sign, you know anything that's functional for them, but really looking at, OK, the kid is doing it because of this reason. Let's get in there and try to give them, you know, socially appropriate means of accessing that same thing.
Hilary: Interesting. We've talked about this concept before about finding out the why and the behaviors because you're right, I think parents instantaneously go to we got to correct this and you know, and we have to do the XY and Z. And you've got to find out what the most appropriate XY and Z it is. And it depends on. Yeah, the purpose.
Katie: Sorry, I was looking like you can make the error and if you don't get it right, making the behavior worse, it's the classic situation of a teacher that puts a kiddo in time out. Well, the kid wanted to get out of what he was doing anyway, so he's having a blast in the corner and I said, you know, he/she, whatever, you know, gender the student is but. Yeah. And you're going wait a minute. You totally got the function wrong. And so now we've got this great behavior where the kids throwing a party in the corner,
Hilary: And now, we're just continuing to reinforce that behavior.
Jen: I was just talking to someone. Can't remember who it was. I think it was. It was a coworker for sure. But we were talking about are you teaching your cat to jump on the counter? And that was a whole analogy of, you know, the cat. The man came home every day. He the cat jumps up on the counter and he takes the cat outside. So what is he taught the cat? To jump on the counter when you want to go outside.
Hilary: A chain of behavior
Jen: and so a lot of times we do as parents teach them how to jump on the counter to get what they want.
Katie: Absolutely. That's funny because we have a boxer puppy and my daughters are so funny. They're trying to do all this training and like, oh, mini behavior analysts in training. And it was funny cause the other day my youngest said, mom, look what I told her. And she had taught her. And she had taught that when she had food to get have the puppy jump up on her chest and so guess what? Now every time we're eating, you have a boxer in your face and I was like, OK, honey, we have to undo this like this. I appreciate the effort, but no, but yeah, I mean, behavior does. It gets shaped up. You know, I'm intentionally we can shape appropriate behavior, you know. But unfortunately we can also shape inappropriate behavior. And oftentimes, that's how episodes and tantrums get shaped up right. This time I'm going to scream. Then you know someone gives in. Next time I'm going to scream, you know? And then I wait and wait. No one gives in. So now I start banging my head on the floor and. Then somebody gives in, but then it's just. You know and it's so hard. I mean, like I've said, I tell parents, like, I feel the pain. It is hard to watch your child be sad and crying and frustrated, you know. So you want to give in. So like I said, if you're going to give in, give in early. And I have told families I've worked with. Like, if you're going to start working on something where it's like, OK, today we're going to work on the screaming. Right. Make sure you get good sleep. Make sure you have support and it's like. Well today's the day, right? Because after that you have got to be consistent. Yeah. If someone else gives in, then you've just taken 10 steps backwards, you know.
Jen: And the cool thing is, once, they can get that consistency with that one thing it's kind of like a domino effect that can help and help you change other behavior.
Hilary: Absolutely yeah. Trickle down.
Katie: Yeah, because often too we have a lot of behaviors that are, you know, a result of the same function, right. So it's like I scream to get access. I kick to get access and to get access and so once you teach them that functional, you know, way of asking all those other challenging behaviors disappear. But it's got to be easier to use that functional communication than to kick or hit. Because if I have to put more effort into, you know, asking for something, then I'm not going to. And I was in a classroom once, so I'm originally from California. And I was in the classroom, we. Were giving some support and I will never forget this either this teacher was there and this little girl had a pecks book and she raised her hand. They were having snack time. This little girl raised her hand and said I'd like goldfish please and the teacher said use your book. And the little girl had to go back and flip through and put the eye and put the want and put the goldfish and put the please on this strip and hand it to the teacher. And I was just flabbergasted. This kid you just made it so much more effortful to get a snack than she asked, appropriately. And I said this little girl's gonna throw some challenging behavior in there. And sure enough, under the table like Bam. So, it's like, no, that was much easier response effort, you know, on her part. And that's what we've got to look at as well, make it easier to access those things so.
Hilary: So, you mentioned and we've kind of gone into this conversation, but you mentioned starting with something, something small, so that parents can kind of see that progress and improvement and give them the motivation. What do you, I mean, I know this is probably very situational, but what are some of those initial things you tend to suggest?
Katie: Sure, sure. So one of the things I one of my specialties is verbal behavior. So looking at language kind of the structure, the motivation when we look at babies, you know one of their first types of communication is obviously crying right. And when they cry, that allows them to gain access to things, you know, mom, food, comfort, warmth. So what we say is. That's it's called a mand, like a kind of a command request. And So what we do a lot of times to say, let's start with mand training, let's teach our kiddos that language is powerful. And when they say something, they get something. And it doesn't have to be again verbal. It can be, you know, picture, button, whatever. But teaching a kiddo to do something, to communicate, to access preferred items, they get buy in. Then they learn well when I communicate the world's a cool place, I get fun stuff. Mom and Dad can then see, you know, any caregiver. Whoa. I can require a response to get something. Whether it's open the door, whether it's turn on the TV, whether it's you know, play with me, that kind of requesting repertoire is so important and I've watched people who are like, oh, I'm teaching my kid how to talk and I'm teaching them table and chair. And it's like well. They don't care about that stuff. Teach them to ask for popcorn or spin or push on the swing, you know, or. Or hug or tickle. Teach them the things that are powerful and this is, you know. From infancy to, you know, working with older people too, the minute they can get their needs met through functional communication, the world opens up for them and so I honestly like telling, you know, teaching parents and a lot of times those challenging behaviors are then mitigated. Because for the kiddo, who's screaming meaning for a cup of juice when you teach them to ask for juice, the screaming goes away, right? And so all those challenging behaviors are often so tied to accessing things in their world. So we always say like mand training is the best thing to do to reduce the majority of challenging behaviors.
Jen: I like that you said earlier about. Oh, darn it it just left my brain.
Hilary: That communication factor we're talking about is hard, huh?
Jen: For me it was more of starting with something that they like and I mean doing the table or a chair, teaching them how to say that. That's great, but it does. It's going to take a lot more time than if they're saying, can, you know, have popcorn or whatnot.
Katie: And that goes into, you know, one thing I haven't talked about is reinforcement. And you know, we really emphasize positive reinforcement in our field. And so not only do you have to know why these behaviors are happening, you have to know what makes the kiddo tick. And so if you don't know what the preferred items are in their world and cities, you're kind of at a loss because you've got to have all those in your little tool belt, right? If I walk in and I've got all the fun stuff, then a kid is going to be more willing to work for me. I can start building rapport. Then I can slowly start placing demands and instructions and, you know, kind of getting them to, you know, build. I guess gain skills and then I can get in there obviously and reduce those challenging behaviors. But if I don't know what they want to earn or work for, I basically have nothing. So that's another thing with parents, you know, really finding out and encouraging their kids to, you know, have a variety of reinforcers. And because oftentimes, especially kids with autism, they get a very narrow kind of amount of things that they'll work for. I've done research and play skills and, you know, often parents will say my kids not interested in toys. Well, naturally, a lot of kids with autism don't have that repertoire. So we have to train them to play with toys and pair those toys with other preferred items, just like you would any other, you know, skill set. And so when I teach this kid out to put the ball down the ramp when I teach this kiddo to put the car on the street and reinforce them for that all of a sudden those toys start taking on reinforcing property. And it's like maybe I want to play with the ball on the ramp now. But yeah, kind of. You know, always, always evaluating what is reinforcing for my child, and I've had parents say, you know what, it's so hard. There's not a lot of things.
Hilary: Yes, We have heard that before. My child is not motivated by anything.
Katie: Right, yes. And then we watch them and kind of go, OK, you know what? Even being left alone sometimes is the reinforcer, right? Wandering might be the reinforcer. Let's bring in a bunch of stuff and just see what they like.
Hilary: Interesting, yeah.
Katie: Let's do kind of an assessment and. And see, because I guarantee you we can always find something, even if it's being left alone. And we can then start to kind of say, OK, I'm going to jump into your world buddy, you know, here we go in a fun rapport building way.
Jen: I worked with a little boy years ago and. He always loved. I can't remember what his diagnosis was, but he loved to line up the counting bears on the lid of the box. And then you would sit there and tap the table. And I'm like. What is he doing? Because then he get down and he'd look at it and I'm like, let me try with this. Do it. And it was kind of cool to see the Bears jump. But it was like, OK, we need to do 3 or 4 problems and then we can make the line.
Katie: Have the bears, right? Or have them. Ask for bear right, and keep doing them bears and teach them colors through there or whatever you know. Yeah, there's always a way. Yeah. And that's kind of, you know, fun. I tell that with the staff I work with too. Like, carry your assignment every week is to try to find new things these kids like, right? And what a fun job you need to bring out new toys, new activities. You know, I was working in a preschool just this week, and I walked over and I started squeezing the little guys on the shoulders. You know, just kind of like a little massage. And he looked up at me and he's nonverbal. But the eye contact kind of signaled more of that. Right. And so I said, squish, squish, squish, squish, squish, you know, and just even something that silly, it's like, OK, he clearly is enjoying this. We use this as a reinforcer, right? Yeah. So yeah, all kinds of different options.
Hilary: Now I know that some parents struggle with the idea of this positive reinforcement, because for them they equate positive reinforcements to bribes. So help us to find the difference between the two, because I can see parents brains going don’t want to bribe them for everything they need to do
Katie: Absolutely. Right. That's so true and. You know, there's that kind of thought with behavior analysts like, oh, do you have M&Ms in your pocket and like, no, they’d melt or I ate them.
Hilary: Silly thing to ask me.
Katie: No. So you know this. Is a very misunderstood concept and one of the big differences. Kind of. And I'm totally against bribes. What I am for is communicating clearly with students and fits right. Kind of bringing a more compassionate side to, you know, when a little guy is, you know, having a really hard time and on the floor, you know, it's OK to say, hey, buddy, I know you're having a hard time. Like, let's figure this out. You know, in, in kind of older times I will say behavior analyst got a bad rap for being very. Kind of, you know, robotic and the kill and drill and not having the heart and compliance training and. We've had a paradigm shift where we're really bringing more compassion into it. And you know, nobody wants to be controlled or, you know, just because I'm bigger than you, I can make you do things. That's not a good message to send. So we brought in this compassion. So the bribery, you know, when we look at reinforcement as a concept. It just means that we're strengthening behavior, so most of us do things we have a lot of choice in our day. We do things, we prefer, some things we don't prefer, but we can sprinkle throughout, right. Most of us also get paid through our employment, right? We also gain reinforcement through social interactions through, you know. Purchasing things for ourselves that we like, I don't think there are a lot of humans out there that would do things without that payoff. And so as a, you know, typically developing adult, we figure, OK, we get reinforced for things same with my own kids at school, right? I have a high schooler and she was thrilled the other day. She got a cookie for being on the honor roll, and I was like, you're 15. So you know, there is that concept of anything that strengthens behavior for us we will do again. And so it doesn't have to be and M&M it can be praise. It can be tickles, it can be access to a preferred activity after you've done your work right. It can be anything that functionally fits into the day. Do the dishes for me, then go watch your Greys Anatomy show you know you're addicted to. So I mean, we all have those natural kind of you know reinforcement opportunities throughout the day. Bribery is when the kiddo is right in the middle of a challenging behavior. And I say, don't you want this? Don't you want that right? Or if you stand up, you can have whatever. So unfortunately the kid is not learning to follow the direction because we're trying to strengthen that behavior. The kiddo is following the instruction to only get what they need, right? And so you end up setting up a really unfortunate relationship between that challenging behavior. And I've had kids. I've witnessed this with, you know, with adults where they lay there and they wait for the perfect thing to be offered. And then they're like, OK, and I'll stand up because that's what I wanted. And next time when I flail and flop on the ground, I'm going to wait for the buffet of options again. Right. Instead of saying, Oh my Gosh. You're walking. You're staying with me. I love it. Thanks for sticking with Mom. You know what? You can have a sticker or you can have five more minutes on your iPad when we get home or. You can watch Bluey or, you know, whatever it is. So, when we set up the contingency ahead of time, you know, or just. And the naturally occurring appropriate behavior happens and we give access to that preferred thing. We have strengthened that behavior right where we say if you want something good to happen, again, follow it with good stuff. That's the simple the simple thing about it. But if you're going to wait till that kiddo is in the throes of challenging behavior to then offer all those things you have just bribed that so. And I understand like no judgment here. Right there are times when we're like, Oh my gosh, I need to do what I have to do, you know, in instances, you know, teachers will have to get kiddos on the bus and maybe there's a challenging behavior episode going on. It's like. This is your way home. Lets do what we need to do. But if we can avoid those situations and strengthen it the other way, that's a much better.
Jen: I like that you gave us in examples of what we as adults get naturally for doing these things because. Some people just say no. I should not be doing all this for my kids and giving them good things for these behaviors or whatnot. But heck, I have to pride myself coming to school or to come to work sometimes.
Katie: Totally. I mean, I've had in the past like. OK, if you go to the gym for two weeks. You can buy those shoes you want, right. And it's like, oh, that's ridiculous. But I need to stick to it. And so and did I go to the gym? No. Did I buy the shoes? No. But, you know, it's still. Yeah, we have a lot of choice. And one of our biggest reinforcers is money from that allows us to contact a variety of different things, you know, so one of the things we like to teach our kids to get on is a token system because then they can access a variety of things. We teach them to choose right instead of always delivering. That one, you know, candy. I had a kid who I worked with. He was a middle schooler, and I noticed the staff was just always giving him a red skittle, and he would had destroyed the school. He was incredibly, he had a lot of aggression. And I sat down with him, he. Was in general. Ed and I said, do you like red Skittles? And he said no. I was like well. Why are they giving them to you? And he said they always have. So, I asked him what he liked. He liked dirt bikes and motorcycles. And so I can't give you that. But what about a magazine? You know, and so every time I'd go up there. And stop at the gas station, get the newest magazines. He loved them and it was one of those things where they had always been giving him this thing. Maybe at one point a red skittle was great, but this kid was like 14. So like. I'm over it. So we always have to be assessing, you know? Yeah.
Hilary: So. I might ruffle some feathers here. I'm just trying to figure out how to say this. Just quite right. We've had the experience, so I'm sure you have this most of your day where there are parents that are frustrated and their goal is to change a child's behavior. When the reality is, as the parent really, they need to be the one to make the difference.
Katie: Yes. Yeah, I mean that's one and that's hard for any of us, right to have that kind of introspection, I can honestly say 99% of the time it's the adult behavior that needs to change and that's classroom science and occupational science. You know, we are older, we're set in our ways. We have behavior patterns. Right. And these kids don't come with a a manual, right? So we go about our day trying to do what we can. And often it is that we have shaped up that behavior, you know, right and inadvertently. And so that's a hard reality. But if parents are open to the training, you know, a lot of times we I just had this happen a couple weeks ago. Where unfortunately, we've had some parents that are in denial and you know these kiddos are engaged in all kinds of challenging behavior. And Mom and Dad sit and don't say a thing, right? It's like, and I think sometimes when there's a disability, there's kind of a higher likelihood of letting the kiddos get away with that. Right because again. Where our hands are tied, we don't know what to do. I feel grateful. I've had the training I've had. Not everyone has had that. And so, you know, just being at a loss and being frustrated and like my kid screams, he climbs on furniture. He does this and that. I don't know to do. So, it's so important, number one, to recognize that as adults, we can make the change, right. Most of this behavior is learned, right? These kiddos didn't pop out of the womb knowing how to destroy things and be aggressive, and, you know, hurt people. And they've learned that. And it's been effective for them. So we as their caregivers and we owe it to them to turn that around because unfortunately if we don't turn it around. The options are not great. You know, as far as hurting people and being as if we see it in the news right there was that, that incident this week with unfortunately a man who hurt a staff member. And so if parents can say, well, I again no judgment. Right. We are here to help. We're here to provide that support, to provide community. There's a bunch. Of different support groups bunch of different training options, but the first thing is you have to say, well what? What is my vision for my child when they're older, right. Do I want them to have friends? Do I want them to be able to have a job? Do I want them to live independently? Do I want them to be happy? Do I want them to be safe? You know, all those things. Well, then we have. To get on that behavior now. And so acknowledging that and then acknowledging I have to reach out for help. And there is no shame in that. Absolutely it. It does take that village and so, but yeah, I'm right there with you and. It's hard to hear. You know, especially when again you have a child that. It's a lot of support, you know. Typically developing kids are hard enough, right? Oh my gosh. But then if you get a child that can't communicate, you know or needs extra support in school. You know you can't even take to the grocery store because there's challenging behavior. I worked with a mom who could never take her child out of the house, and we had to, you know, slowly work with her to do that. But my heart broke for her. Her life is entirely different than mine. I can run to the store and throw my kids in the car and. And, you know. I mean, once in a while there'll be little turd bags, but, you know, on the whole, I can reason with them. I can reinforce them appropriately. But yeah, I it's incredibly hard. So the support is not only for the home, you know it's for the Community, it's for quality of life. You have to set goals and say what do I want our family to be able to do? You know, one family told me we just want to go to the movies. We can't go to the movies. So it's like, OK, we'll start teaching your kiddo to sit through a movie a little bit at a time until they can, you know. Maybe you go for 45 minutes and then you leave and leave, and in the meantime you bring all their good stuff and you reinforce them on the schedule. But that was what was important to them. So it's like, are you teaching this kid to watch TV? Well, because I want Mom and dad to be able to do that with their other kiddos too. And this is something their kiddo can do with their siblings. So yeah. Yeah, parents should know there's no shame in getting help.
Hilary: So, let's talk a little bit about that as we kind of wind things down. Talk to us about some of the resources that are available.
Katie: Sure. We're really fortunate here in the valley. So the Utah parent center is obviously an amazing organization. Up on the Utah State campus, there's a behavior support clinic. I don't know. What the wait is right now, but they can definitely contact that. That's run through psychology department and the you know, the special Ed department, they kind of collaborate on that one. There's also options for independence. Which I know has I've, you know, done some talks for them. They're just amazing as far as parent support. And then we do have an early intervention program up on campus called Assert. And they serve three to five year olds. But in addition, they provide trainings for parents just in the community and on the wait list. And if parents would like to receive emails and they also have updated a resource list so they send that out. The parents would like to be on the e-mail list. They can just e-mail assert which is Assert@usu.edu and they can they can get that resource list so. Yeah. Lots of different options.
Hilary: Perfect. And we can put all that information in our show notes so that our parents can access that. So that would be perfect. So, let's say that we have a parent out there that is dealing with those challenging behaviors both in home and at school. How can they advocate on behalf of a behavior analysts like yourself to come to the school and help?
Katie: Well, the first you know the first line would be the teacher obviously. And you know my heart goes out to all the educators out there. I have not met a one that doesn't want more training and more support, and the ones I've been working with in the districts. I'm super collaborative. And so yeah, I think they would absolutely love if a parent would come to them and say I'm noticing some behaviors at home because sometimes we get this kind of dichotomy where parents will say, I don't see any of that at home. Shoot. Well, we do have different environments, right? And we have a lot of academic demand in the school environment. But you know, if a parent would say, hey, I'd love to set up a meeting to talk about these behaviors and how we can collaborate, how we can be consistent across the environments and I've heard there's this thing called the, you know, board certified behavior analyst. Can we bring somebody in to help analyze and, you know, implement a plan? I think both districts would be ready to be able to that
Jen: And if you can get both on the same page I mean that way it's just going to sink those lessons in a little bit deeper for the kids.
Katie: For those, well, it has to work that way because it's like. If it's happening in one environment, but. Not the other. How functional is that you know and I know like, OK, kids are in school for six hours or preschoolers, sometimes two hours. And it's like teachers hands are kind of tied at that point. It's like, I only have them for so long, but the home environment, you know, and we also know the home environment has so much more variability. So that's hard part. So sometimes I would say, you know, to my own staff when I was teaching. Let's get this under control in the classroom. Then let's meet with Mom and Dad, teach them how to do it, you know, and then they can implement it. And we've kind of given them a head start on whatever it is because the home environment is much harder. So yeah, there's also a bunch of organizations that are not free, but they do provide services to kids with autism and other disabilities, so you know, if people have their insurance that are covering that they can get in home support. Those people usually collaborate with school systems. So there is that too.
Hilary: Perfect.
Jen: This is a really great episode to where I think it's not that you just listen to it once you listen to it multiple times.
Hilary: Have you seen me making notes? I gotta remember what she just said right there. That was really good. So great. I was just going to say as we kind of close up shop. Any final pieces of advice. You would give to our listeners out there?
Katie: Yeah. One thing I do want to reiterate is that you know the Internet is such a lovely thing, but it's also a nightmare. And especially with parents of children with autism, they often get on there and are trying to seek out services for their kiddo. And there's a lot of what we would refer to as snake oil. You know, swimming with dolphins. It's not functional. I can honestly say that the only thing that has been tried and true to teach functional skills and to reduce those challenging behaviors is applied behavior analysis. And again, it's the long haul, right? But really that is the first thing I would say is seek out ABA. There's some great parenting books out there. You know, there's to anything by Temple Crandon. It's just a fun read. There's one called parenting with science and there's how to think like a behavior analyst. And so no matter what else you are doing to kind of, you know, subsidize your programming, make sure there's a behavior analyst involved, because otherwise I it it's just it's not evidence based, it's not empirically validated and that worries me that there is a lot of that out there. So that's the first and foremost and the 2nd thing is, I've seen, you know, a lot of people that are afraid to provide those boundaries and be structured. And you know, I have to remind myself my children are not my friends and sometimes they're going to be angry and frustrated at me. But it's OK to set those boundaries through my 30 years of working. You know, with kids I have been firm. I have been consistent. I have never had a child run from me. They have respected those boundaries and the consistency because they. So I'll bring the. Good stuff. And they've done the right stuff and when they haven't, I'm not going to reinforce it. That consistency is so important. It's OK to say no to your kiddo. It's OK to, you know. Again, reach out for help. But yeah, setting, you know, being consistent and setting those boundaries is so important not only for the quality of family life, but for educational environments in the future, and those teachers will really appreciate that. So yeah.
Hilary: Katie, we're so glad you're in our community
Katie: Aw Thank you! I am so grateful. I think you know, I fell in a pot of jam when I fell into this science and fell into working with kids with disabilities. I would say it's the perfect marriage, right? Special education and the behavior analytic technology. I wish every special educator and parent could have some of that training, they really do think you know the world would be a better place. So I feel so lucky that people guided me that way.
Jen: Well we just want to thank you so much for coming and taking time our of your day.
Katie: You are so welcome! So happy to do it,
Jen: So, we hope that you have enjoyed this episode. And again, like I said, you need to listen to it multiple times. Remember to be kind and patient with yourself and we will see you back here next week.
Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly - The Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is thefamilyplaceutah.org if you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual. Classes. We'd love to see you there.
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