Karen is our guest this week and is so kind to talk to us about her life as a child and how it prepared her for her life as a parent. Karen takes us back to past therapists guidance, gut instincts, and what held her and her family together through the tough years of raising a "tough" kid.
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Marlyn: This week's story of resilience includes some heavy struggles and a trigger warning for attempted suicide.
Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place Podcast with Hillary and Jen. Hi and welcome to the Parents Place podcast, I'm Jen your host and today we have two special people. Marlyn is joining us, the behind the scenes, gal because Hillary is out, teaching lots of kids about body safety, so we have Marlyn here and she will be our co-host.
Marlyn: Hey, everyone!
Jen: And today is one of our wonderful stories of resilience. This is one of my favorite weeks, I always go or I always leave uplifted and knowing that we can all do hard things. So today we have a great guest and I will let her introduce herself.
Karen M:My name is Karen Mouritsen, I'm 62 years old and I've been married almost 41 years. We have four children, three boys and one girl, my oldest turned 40 this year. I never did much college, but I have been working and raising my four children all their lives. So, for the last 40 years, and I say for 40 years because I don't believe raising them after they move out, motherhood is a lifelong Commitment.
Jen: Mm hm and it's still a lot of work.
Karen: Yes.
Marlyn: Don't tell me that! Just kidding!
Jen: You've got your three, you're thinking 18, I'm done?
Marlyn: I know I'm not done, but I'm like, maybe we'll be through the.
Jen: Easier?
Marlyn: The thick of it, maybe not?
Karen: Depends on the child.
Marlyn: Okay. Well it's good to know I can adjust my expectations then.
Jen: And I really think there should be a degree for motherhood, I mean, that's a hard job. You have to take on lots of other job titles to be to be that mom. So I in my eyes, you are a doctorate in parenting. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your story of resilience, Karen?
Karen: OK so I believe my resilience started when I was being raised. I lost my mom, she died of leukemia when I was 5 and then my dad, he made a promise to my mom that he would take care of her sister and her four children. So, after like, 6 months, they married the thing is, is this aunt was not, she didn't like me, and so I grew up with resilience. I held things in, the things that I never really knew if my parents loved me, just miscellaneous things. If there were things that she could do to pick on me, she would do so behind my dad's back so to speak. So my parenting or my resilience started when I was young so at five and then unfortunately, my dad also passed away when I was 16.
Jen: So you're with this aunt, then?
Karen: Yes, with his aunt and I was blessed to have bigger brothers and a sister that helped me and stepped in a lot of times. But a lot of things they did not realize the way things are so my resilience started way back then. I learned to, when to shut my mouth and when to hold everything in, which is one of the reasons why I speak out now, because I never would put that on any child.
Marlyn: I love that! It's hard when you learn the hard way, but then we can turn it around and do better for others. That's really cool.
Karen: Yes, and so we, the questions I was asked was parenting a different difficult child, lack of parent sources. Anyways, my parenting started nine months, two days before nine months moving after we got married. And so, yes, a honeymoon baby Chris is my first born, he's had character since week one, he had to have attention all the time, but being my first, I didn't know that that would be a challenge of all his life. So, an example from like, the doctor told me he was going to be a challenge because he just had so much adrenaline. I mean, he was on the go and the nurse, one of the first times she nicknamed him Critterfer cause was just so active. So, as I was raising him up to like three years old many people told me, “Oh, your child has ADD.” Back then, that was a label I was not willing to accept in my growing up as resilient, my stepsister, had ADD, they didn't know a lot about it.
Marlyn: Mm-hmm.
Karen: So, it ended up they put her in special needs classes and all in all she's grown to be a special needs person. And I have nothing against special needs, but it was an excuse for my stepmom and so she got coddled, she didn't live up to her potential. And so, you tell me my child has ADD and I'm going to, It's like, no, no.
Marlyn: Push back and it's hard, like when they didn't know very much about it back then, It's like, there's quite a huge question mark too.
Karen: Push back, yes. Yeah, right so I was not going to accept that he was ADD. Then after five years I dealt with it and I'm not sure how I dealt with it. I had a brother, my one of my older brothers he was there for me. My husband was really tough on, I mean, not, he was tough on dealing with me and so I'm looking back saying maybe its is a bit of mother bear and maybe a bit of tough love. But when he, his kindergarten teacher at the time brought up ADD and I'm like no, it was a challenge for me, but she and she says by law, I can't tell you to go get him tested, but as a friend to Chris, I would suggest that you do. Well, Lo and behold he had ADHD and there was no problem diagnosing it. And so we, that was the first guise, he had anger issues, and later we learned he knew how to manipulate people. So, like at Church most of the time he was an Angel at school, most of the time, he was a good kid, but then came home and all heck broke loose, you know.
Marlyn: This is exactly what middle child is and she has been diagnosed. So it's just like, I'm not the only one.
Karen: And that's what it was good to know but they didn't have that back then, like the teacher was very worried about even suggesting to me to have them tested.
Marlyn: Yeah.
Karen: MHM, yeah and so, go ahead.
Jen: Just thinking back I’m trying to think how old my brother is, he's 48 now and same thing everyone told my mom, get him tested, get him tested, put him on medication. And she's like, no, I'm not going to do that and she didn't and he I mean, was never diagnosed with it or anything, but I would say even now he has some form of it because he can't sit still and he's just all over the place and doing all these other projects. But now he has a son who's the same way, so yeah, but yeah, it was, it was tricky back in the day of, it was not an accepted thing.
Marlyn: Yeah, well, I'm, I'm not that old but, like, not that old, I mean, like, I'm going through it now because my daughter's nine or eight. But it seems like it'd be like if he has it don't say any, you know, like keep it on the down low and that's so frustrating and I'm wondering so, with his behavior mostly being at home, how did that make you feel when, like, he's like only misbehaving for you? Because I know how it makes me feel, so how did that feel for you?
Karen: I always felt I was a failure as a mom, and no matter what I did, so like we did have some counseling and one of the things they say is to have a strict structure for AD, ADHD children. I've always been the one that just flies by the seat of my pants and so plus, I was a working mom so, I'd be lucky to have one day at a time planned.
Marlyn: Yeah.
Karen: That was a challenge.
Marlyn: That's so hard.
Karen: And luckily, I had my brothers and my sister that had love and support for our family. There wasn't a lot of counseling, we couldn't afford it back then, still can't afford it. They wanted to try medication we tried it now at 40 years old, he says, “That's why I'm so short Mom, you stunted my growth.”
(laughter)
But we honestly didn't feel that it made that much of a difference and so medication, I do in Sunday school primary, I have one child that was ADHD and it makes a world of difference for him. I think resilience just made me deal with Chris and so.
Marlyn: I think it's very case by case too, like medications affect everyone differently. How does it affect your child? Because my daughter’s on it and we don't notice that much of a difference, but she has like sleep disturbance.
Karen: Uh-huh.
Marlyn: And so she has something to help her keep her brain quiet at night, and that helps her sleep. Because if she doesn't sleep, that's where the behavior comes from it's not really like the ADHD medicine that helps that much it's making sure she gets her sleep. So, yeah, it's such a mixed bag when it comes to medications.
Karen: Yeah. So, stories we dealt with is that OK? So when he was around 8 years old, I was pregnant with my last child and he didn't want to give attention to this baby inside me, he attempted to beat my baby and I couldn't handle it, so we sent him to back then it was a mental facility. Now they call it behavior, behavioral health, yes. But, so we went through that, insurance I could only afford 3 weeks. After the three weeks, they said, “We think we've got him trained.” He's and my job was to try to keep the strict structure, my job was to of course to just deal with him.
Marlyn: Yeah.
Karen: But their final thing was that he not only had ADHD, but they he did, they diagnosed him with ODD and that's.
Marlyn: That's another stigma.
Jen: That's a rough one.
Karen: Yeah. Which brought in a lot of how he was able to manipulate and brought in a lot of why he was angry but back then, like nobody even knew what ODD was.
Marlyn: But it was so new. I feel like it's new now, so I can't imagine either.
Karen: Yes, yes. And so they sent me home how to deal with ADHD, still, you're on your own for ODD.
Jen: I think my first one of my first clients of working here was, and that was 18 years ago, so he had ODD, and that was the first time I had ever heard of it. And that's a tough one, that's a tough diagnosis.
Marlyn: I took a parenting class for ADHD, like parents of kids with ADHD and this is the least helpful thing anyone's ever said to me. Because he’s like just be grateful it's not ODD and I was like, and we were, like, mid diagnosis of ODD and like that's not helpful, say something positive please!
Karen: It's like 3 months later, they're calling me asking how he's doing and I'm like he's back to his old self and they actually wrote off my bill. Because he had manipulated them at the facility.
Marlyn: There's, I mean, they’re so smart, like it's not...
Karen: And at least yes. Ohh, that's just it, but they.
Marlyn: They're very clever.
Karen: Try to make you believe they're dumb, at least that's what my Chris did. And even now he tries to tell me he's, you know, “Well, I'm just a dumb old production worker,” and I'm, like, unacceptable.
Marlyn: Mm-hmm.
Karen: And that's what it was all his life, I wouldn't allow him.
Marlyn: Like don't say you can't, you know, like you can do this. I feel like labels make that hard, too. I haven't told my daughter she has ADHD, but I don't know if she would even know, but I just was like, this is this is hard for you and this other thing's hard for this person.
Karen: Yeah. You can do this.
Marlyn: You can still do these things, and everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, but yeah.
Jen: I have a stepdaughter that has bipolar and that is like the first thing she tells everybody. Now my name is such and such, and I have bipolar, I'm like, sweetheart, you don't have to label yourself.
Marlyn: It's not like, that part, it's not that big of a part of you.
Jen: Yeah, it's not what makes you.
Karen: Exactly and that's what we tried to teach Chris, but we went through a lot. Resilience is having a counselor tell you, I mean, he started out being my counselor just for depression, decided my husband needed to come in, decided my children needed to come in. When Chris was in our counseling session, he excused the children, and he says you need to build a cage for him and we had the facilities in our garage, so we built a cage for him and when he got out of, I mean it was more his anger issues, his ODD. And so, he would like, kick holes and walls and he would, it's hard.
Marlyn: Yeah.
Karen: Umm, you know, and he beat on me.
Marlyn: Mm-hmm, how old was he at this point?
Karen: He was nine. Yeah, 9-ish eight nine ten? So and so, yeah, so we did put him in a cage.
Marlyn: That's hard!
Jen: Yeah. Well, that's what you were told to do, by professionals.
Karen: But yes, and so, but so resilience getting over it type thing Chris is it was in high school, we were at his parent teacher conference, and she says, So, Chris, how did you turn out to be such a good kid? His answer to everybody is, ohh, my mom put me in a cage when I was little.
Marlyn: You’re like err-oh.
Karen: And it's always like in front of teachers and stuff. And your, their reaction is like, huh? Yeah, and so explanation.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Marlyn: You’re Like, wait, wait, wait let me tell you!
Karen: Yes, yes but if you were to ever to ask Chris, you know, he would say mom put me in a cage when I was little. So, you know we dealt with it and then after that we also had to send him to my brother's house, my big brother's house. We moved from California to Utah and during that move, one of the experiences was, if I'm talking too much? He so he was only like 3ish back then and he got for Christmas, he had gotten a brand-new bunk bed for him and his brother. He had taken the marker, permanent marker and scribbled all over it, we were packing and the only thing available was a Hot Wheels Track. This is another story he'll tell you and I took it and I hit him once on the bum and I left a mark and he looks at me with tears in his eyes and he says that didn't hurt, what are you gonna try now? I went through the whole package of Hot Wheels, we didn't take him with us, they were thrown in the garbage. I called my brother, sobbing because my husband was in Utah went finding a job and a home for us. And so, it was usually 1/2 hour drive, he was there in 15 minutes, and he picked Chris up and he says, my little buddy, you need to know you will never make your mom cry again. And he says, I love you with all my heart, but I love your mom too and you will not treat her this way. Chris started crying and he put him in time out and then he went back and talked to him and says you owe your mother an apology. These are experiences.
Jen: Great Big Brother.
Marlyn: I know, I'm like, wow!
Karen: Ohh he's my life and so he's helped me through lots of things.
Marlyn: And so that's so great, he's like supporting you and Chris like, no picking teams. You're both going through something hard and yeah, I when you threw the thing away like I've done similar things, so like, I don't know what to do like at like at a certain point you're like, well, I'm gonna try this cuz nothing else is working.
Karen: Yes. Yeah.
Marlyn: You know, like and it's very emotional, so yeah.
Karen: Very emotional, yes and so up until just a couple of years ago, well, a few years ago, when my grandson was born, I bought hot wheel tracks for him, but Chris is like so now it's like all right, Chris, be sassy with me now, but he knows and he knows, what happened? And he to this day he remembers that, but he also remembers what I did.
Marlyn: Mm-hmm.
Karen: And so, he but he will tell you that story also.
Marlyn: He's like I got a couple of stories I'll keep telling.
Jen: Yes, that's my story about my brother he used to chase, we had a house where you could run a circle. So, my parents' bathroom had two entrances and exits on both sides and he would chase us around that darn house and when my parents left, we knew a knife was going to come out.
Marlyn: Oh my gosh.
Jen: And he would chase us so my sister would be on one end of the door holding the button in to keep it locked and I'd be out the other end and he'd be going underneath the thing. And so, I say it now, he's like, can't you just forget that and I'm like no, because it explains a lot about you. It's true. I love you, you're a great man now, but that was wild.
Marlyn: So, I'm wondering like seeing like knowing how he was when he was younger and as he's getting older, what were your concerns for him like as he left the house? I'm like, I'm definitely projecting my fears and wanting to know what your fears were.
Karen: My fears were that I was failing as a mom, I had three more children to take care of and one of our jokes now is Mom with all these stories of Chris, why did you have the three of us? It's because my family is my life and I never, I kept thinking that he would get better, he would get better. I'm going to share a story that he, when he was in his older teens, he was 18 because he had already graduated, and he was trying to be, I'm 18 now I can do what I want. He had broken up with a young lady and he was really upset. He came home just devastated and his decision was to commit suicide. He took a knife and ran out to the barn and, sorry, I had to call the Sheriff's Office. Luckily, I was blessed that one of the sheriffs was in our town and a friend of our family came over, he was off duty, but he came over and he went out to talk to Chris and I think if it weren't for Paul, I'm sorry. Chris probably wouldn't be here today, but the hardest thing too, is that it's 1:00 in the morning and my daughter, his little sister knew what was going on, I put her and her brother to bed. And he tells the officer that he needs to know from Erica that he’s still wanted and needed. He came and talked to me and said, this whole time, Chris has the knife up to his throat. And I wasn't allowed to be out there, but Paul comes in and says he needs to talk to Erica. I'll be with her I'll coach her through it, and would you allow it? I had him talk to Erica and she said OK, I'll go.
Marlyn: How old was she?
Karen: She was 9 or 10, maybe 11, I mean, she was just a young one. She went out and the next thing I knew the sheriffs came and they took him away. He was there for three days, and we started working on more plans. And you know, those are the things that sometimes you as a parent, you're lost. It was, I was lost having to have Erica go out there. But to this day and I should have brought it, she was in middle school because she wrote a poem about it.
Marlyn: Hmm.
Karen: To read it to this day makes me sob, but we as a family if there's anything else we know as a family as we love each other and we will be there. And that's where I think Chris is now, Chris has come a long way. You guys know Chris? What else do you want to know? We've been, I've been going through but just so you know, your heart is torn, but you don't give up.
Marlyn: It's like the definition of resilience, right? Like you feel like the total loss, and you keep going.
Karen: Yes, because like for me it was like because me growing up, I wanted to run away, I wanted to kill myself. And I never wanted that upon my children and so you just, it's like I'm not letting this overcome us.
Marlyn: Yeah, I love that and it's hard, I think as a parent, when things come up and you like, oh, I wanted to save them from this, and you can’t and that's so hard to swallow. And then after you kind of realize that, like, hey, I can't save them from this, but I'm going to keep doing my best, which is who knows what sometimes because you don't know what you're doing a lot, but. Keep pushing through, so I'm wondering if you feel like you're like, we talk about protective factors a lot like. What did you kind of have on your side as far as support? I mean, I know you had your family, not just like your kids, but your siblings too. What else do you feel like, was kind of a support for you that helped get you through this?
Karen: For the most part, my religion. I, can I share another story?
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Karen: After this I prayed and prayed, I'm not a person that prays a lot because of fears of what might happen but, call it personal revelation just my heart was heavy. And the thing that came to me was no matter what, just love him and it's like, yeah, but, no matter what, you love him. And I came home, and I was sobbing, and I told my husband and he's like, that's amazing. Because for him, he was the same question, my husband's been very supportive all this time, but he was raised very strict in our religion. I wasn't raised as strict, and so I've been kind of easy go, when I shared that with him, he says he says that is our answer. And from that point on, my children, if I were to die today the one thing, they would be able to bear witness to is that their Mama loved them, no matter what. Another son has on his wrist, never alone, he had it tattooed on his wrist because he knows that we as a family will never be alone, and so yes, my religion. I think for me is, after growing up in my thing, I talk about it a lot, a lot because it causes depression. I’ve dealt with depression; counselors told me since I was five years old and never really dealt with depression until after my third child. It was my way of life and now I share that because that brings my resilience, that brings my love for my religion, it brings my love for my family.
Marlyn: I mean, I just love that with these backgrounds of support that you have, like, these things could tear people apart and I'm sure it does. But the fact that it brought your family together like just your answer of just love him, and then your daughter being, you know, like just the fact that Chris had that connection with his sister. Like I want, I need to talk to my sister like that just gives me chills, like just knowing the support, like having a strong family doesn't mean like everything's gonna be perfect. But it means that when things are hard, you can grow together rather than apart, and I just think that's amazing.
Karen: Yeah, and that's what has happened through our lives and so yeah.
Marlyn: So how are things now? You said Chris is totally turned around and?
Karen: He still manipulates, I'm doing fine in the question when we were texting, you asked what's the positive and negative takeaways. Uh, I feel positive take away, is we made it through it, but it was not without the help of our families, friends and our religion. It took a long time, negative as it took a long time. One last experience that brought me to the tough love again, he had been married and had a baby and he had another meltdown he followed me through the middle of Logan on Main Street yelling at me, cussing at me, calling me F and this and F and that threatening that the next truck that came by, he was going to jump in front of it. My heart again, was torn but also, I kept being told love him, just love him, this really isn't the Chris I know.
Jen: Mm-hm.
Karen: And so, from that point on, he ended up separating and divorcing. He tried coming home and living with us again but his manipulations, his ODD everything was just, I'm getting old I can't handle this anymore and I will protect his daughter. And so, with that I turned to tough love I kicked him out and I said you are on your own when you know and remember the things that you were taught you are welcome in our home. And that was like a year or so, I mean, it's not like he wasn't welcome to come and visit, but he wasn't allowed to stay and.
Marlyn: Yeah.
Karen: So, I think that's sometimes you have to have tough love, you can't just coddle them all the time. Although it's hard and even now at 40 years old, he will have his moments and my answer is Chris when you've calmed down, we'll talk, and so, that's what it is.
Marlyn: That's a great response. That's like what we teach in parenting like when they're really upset, they're not going to be able to reason or, and adults too, like, that's, yeah, toddlers to adults, if they're high emotions, no talking is going to figure it out until the emotions calm down.
Jen: MHM.
Karen: Oh, yes, one of the other things we did when he was growing up is to keep him out of trouble, is we had rock piles. And if he got out of hand, one of the rock piles was having to go out and help Grandpa on the farm, so he had to change pipes, he had to help till the ground. He, literally, we made him pick up the rocks out of the field and put him in a pile. With that, his grandpa, I never knew this, but his grandpa would teach him scripture stories. And do you know what? That's one of the things now that he's had a rough last few years. But, and so with one of the experiences he had, it was his, I can't remember. So, he had a seizure, was hospitalized, he was in a car accident. When he was in the car accident, his blessing he was told your Heavenly Father is pleased with your work, because from the seizure, almost a year later he had started studying the Scriptures, and he would always tell me, Grandpa said, and I've actually read it and now it means something to me.
Marlyn: MHM.
Karen: The second with the accident, he said, he says, so what's your answer now, mom? And I said, Chris, the only part of the blessing I heard was your Heavenly Father is pleased with your efforts and he's just, he's so strong now he's like the big brother that checks in with the other siblings, all his nieces and nephews he checks in with, like usually once a week and he checks in with us.
Marlyn: Ohh.
Karen: Every week, sometimes it's Chris, I've had enough of you, but he knows I love him and what?
Marlyn: Yeah.
Karen: What else? I mean, the negative was the being, that being said that it was my religion also be cautious of people. I found out years later that when he was 18 17 18 our, Can I say this Bishop, OK? Was one of the ones that told him he was not going to turn out to be something.
Marlyn: Ohh my word.
Karen: And to quit, so why even bother? Crushed my heart and then we proved them wrong. Yeah, so that's what I would say is still cautious with people that you trust. Because I don't know. What do you say?
Marlyn: We just all sometimes assume that everyone has the same heart for, you know, love for our kids, and some people don't.
Jen: Yeah, right.
Karen: Yeah, they don't.
Marlyn: Which is hard because, especially in a position of trust. You're like, Oh well?
Karen: Right, right and not granted, Chris is still 40 years old he's loud and can be obnoxious, but there's also a side of them that you can't not love. You know? So yeah.
Marlyn: And there's a side everyone can be hurt by things like that, are totally said to them so yeah, no one's immune from awful things like that being said so.
Karen: Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, it was, it's almost been a year where we almost bought a home my husband and I and then everything went bonkers, and we ended up backing out of the house. And Brandy said, oh, Jen, Chris already had plans to help you to move and I'm like what? We hadn't even asked for it, need or anything, and but he was like, OK, what are we going to do to help Jen and John get up here and move? And was all ready to go and that really touched me that he's like even thinking of that before I could ask or yeah, so.
Karen: And that's him now, because he also checks like he works like either the three or four and usually has like 4 days off, 3 days off, or four days off. And when Brandy's at work, he will call us and say, do you need anything done? And so, he’d come and help me.
Marlyn: Oh my Gosh.
Karen: Straighten out my garage so that I can get my car back in and for the winter. He that's, yeah, that's him now and yes, again, he can be obnoxious, he can have meltdowns but um.
Marlyn: Yeah.
Jen: He's got the family and the support and the love that he needs to help him #1 be blatantly honest. I'll talk to you when you settle down, I mean, sometimes that's what it takes is just blunt conversations of this is when we’ll, yeah.
Karen: That's still the tough love.
Marlyn: I don't think that ever goes away sometimes it's, that's what you need to do. I'm saying that like I know what I'm doing. My oldest is 10.
Karen: Well, that's my story.
Jen: Well, we appreciate you coming and sharing your story, I know there's probably lots of parents out there that can connect and relate, and it's always nice to know that you're not alone. That people think parenting is this easy thing and it's not an easy thing, it's hard. You sacrifice a lot of yourself and there's things that we don't know what to do with, and so you do need those supports that are with you.
Marlyn: Thanks so much for being vulnerable and willing to share, that's so cool. Yeah, I appreciate that as a mother of someone with ADHD. So I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm not the only one that feels like completely drowned and doesn't know what to do. And.
Jen: But also seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, it may be a long tunnel.
Marlyn: Maybe that's and you know, like once we like we're like ohh things are going well and then, you know like, puberty or you know, so there's always something. So, I'm like OK.
Jen: Yes.
Karen: Yeah. Oh, yeah and break up with a girl or something of that sort.
Marlyn: Yeah, yeah. So like, baby steps and a long tunnel, but that's so good to know, because sometimes.
Karen: Yes.
Marlyn: It feels like an endless tunnel, so.
Karen: Mm-hmm. And that's what find someone that you can like, honestly, if you were, if anybody were to ever call and say who Was that lady that was?
Marlyn: It's this person, she saves me.
Karen: Yes, and what I mean, if they needed somebody, that's what I'm willing to do. Just, I listen and yes, I tell stories, but I hope that it's stories that will help people know and understand. And so, can I just the one of the last questions you asked what tips, advice would you give someone going through a similar struggle? My answer would be, don't ever give up and love them no matter what, and they are never alone. When you can go with your heart, I found family to be our biggest and best support. If you don't have a family, find a friend, a church member or call me.
Marlyn: Ohh. Thank you so much.
Jen: Awesome. Well, thank you so much and I hope everybody enjoyed our episode today. If you have any, ever if you ever have any questions, you can e-mail us at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org. We hope you have a good week. Remember to be kind to yourself and we will meet you back here next week.
Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly – The Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information our website is thefamilyplaceutah.org if you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes, we'd love to see you there.
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