Have you heard of empathy? Do you know what empathy is? Is it the same as sympathy? What are the benefits of parents being empathetic? Let's talk more about having empathy with your kids!
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Hilary: Welcome to The Parents Place podcast. We are excited to have you guys with us today. I am your host, Hilary Anderson,
Jen: and I'm Jen Daly.
Hilary: And as Jen and I talked about what we wanted to discuss today, a topic came to my mind that I just love to use when it comes to interacting with my kids. And this is being able to use empathy and empathy is one of those things that I feel like we talk about a lot in parenting and in family lives. But, we don't necessarily talk about how we can effectively use it with our own kits and how we go about being empathetic to our little ones. So, I want to talk a little bit about that today, but before we do, I want us to try to understand what exactly empathy is. It's one of those phrases that I think we throw out, but we maybe don't necessarily have a clear definition as to what it is. So, I'm going to ask you, Jen, what comes to your mind off the bat when you think of empathy?
Jen: I always think of, there's a video or a little clip that Brene Brown does on empathy. And it's, like when she says it's being able to sit there with someone to be in that space with someone and listen and just be in that space. I always think of for me in my head, I like to think empathy is sitting in that space, I'm here for you, I'm going to help you. And then I think of sympathy, and that's when it's like, okay, this is what we're going to do, I know you're having a hard time, so we're going to do X, Y and Z. And empathy, we're still allowing that person to have those feelings and work through those and resolve their own issues at the same time.
Hilary: Oh, yeah. So Brene Brown, which, by the way, have mentioned she's like the two when it comes to empathy, so that video is fantastic and I love it. She I remember, she said at one point, the empathy has no script, and so I think sometimes we worry that we're doing it right or we're doing it wrong or whatnot. But I love that you remind us that it's holding that space like it can be as simple as listening to someone. It doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to solve their problems, and it doesn't necessarily even mean that we have to have experienced that particular problem ourselves. But it's the idea of connecting with that particular person, not necessarily the particular events that they're going to hear, but connecting with that particular person, feeling with them.
Jen: Its more connecting with the person and connecting with the feeling and not the experience, but the feeling. We've all had sadness and happiness and loss and grief and things like that, and we can connect with that feeling and not the event and still be there. And that is what empathy is.
Hilary: I remember in one of our courses that we teach at The Family Place, we do an activity with kids to help them to understand and empathy. And we talk about know, oftentimes when we talk about empathy, we use the phrase of putting yourself in someone else's shoes, but with this exercise, we had printed off some footprints, some shoes, some actual shoes that we have picked on to the floor. And so, we allow the students to physically step on to use these shoes, these footprints, so that they can practice this technique of, let me try to feel with this other person so that they can come to a better understanding of where they're coming from. And I think that that's powerful for kids to understand that, it's a lifelong skill to be able to feel with someone and be able to connect on that level so that we can then in there and help them to do that. Help them move through that or whatever it needs, whatever our role is in that particular scenario. You know, the thing is, I think it's funny because when we talk about empathy, I think the reality is that for most of us as adults, we are pretty good at empathizing with other adults because it's easy to relate to other adults and the situations they're going to. And it's like you said, we may not have experienced that exact event, but we may have experienced a similar event. So, if my neighbor has lost their job, it's really easy for me to go over and visit with them and to empathize, to say, I know how much that hurts and how stressful that is, that similar situation happened to us five years ago, and so we can relate to it. And so, with adults, it tends to be more simple, but for whatever reason, it's harder, I think, for a lot of people to empathize with kids. We forget what it was like to be a kid, even though that may not have been that long ago, but we forget that sometimes these kid problems to us seem really insignificant, but to them are big problems.
Jen: I think also at the time, we need to use empathy most with our kids is when they're probably pushing their buttons. And then we're in that mode of, hey, now I'm frustrated and angry, and I'm not using my full brain because it's in that fight or flight kind of mode and that's when we could be using empathy the most with our kids is just taking that step back, allowing us to have that feeling of frustration. But then and being okay with not handling things right then so that they we can go back in and use empathy with our kids.
Hilary: You know, I think a lot of times we just assume that kids are born knowing how to empathize and knowing, and it's just a skill that they already have accumulated, but I like that you bring up the fact that it's I mean, it's something that needs to be learned. And we as adults, we need to make sure that we're doing this, especially when we are frustrated so that they can see appropriate ways to respond when they get frustrated. And so, yeah, for some people, it's a little bit more natural, but for other people, it's definitely something that used to be practiced. And so, to be able to be the model for how to practice it is a very important thing to have. You know, I think about my daughter, so out of all of my kids, she's my child that probably has the biggest feelings when she feels a feeling it's big and so she tends to get really frustrated or anxious in particular situations. And it's always so interesting to me because when she gets to that point, she doesn't want to hear a lecture. Lecture does no good at that point, and she doesn't even necessarily want me to fix it for her either, which sometimes I think as parents of their go to a response is to fix it for them so that they'll feel better. But when she gets to that point, she doesn't want me to fix that and she doesn't want me to tell her what she's doing wrong or what she needs to be doing differently. She just wants to be heard, and she wants to be understood, and she wants to be validated. And I think for most kids that that is the case, that they just want to be heard. I think oftentimes they find themselves fighting for a voice in the home, in the family. And so, I think empathy allows us to do that because it is of that connection on that emotional level. And so instead of me saying, oh sweetie, I know that your friend doesn't want to play with you but just get over it, it's not a big deal. Like, stop crying, buck up! You know, I I'm allowing that connection by saying that looks really frustrating and what a bummer that that's the case. I can see that this is something that's really hurting you right now and you know, you can always follow up with the, what can I do to help you through this process? So that then we can connect and come up with some solutions if needs be. But I had somebody give me the analogy that, you know, empathy is just like using a mirror. And so, when kids have these big feelings being that being able to put that mirror up in front of them, you know, and it shows them we are the mirror, essentially. But what we can do is we can validate and we can reflect and we can let them know that they don't have to do this alone and that they can feel we can fill with them and they can tell us.
Jen: Yeah, it reminds me that reminds me of a video from, Inside Out. So just a little clip from Inside Out when Bing Bong’s there at the dump, I believe it is. And he's losing his plane and they've taken it away, and Joy is doing everything she can to make him happy or laugh or get him to move on because they need to move on in their journey. And it's not until Sadness sits down with him and says that must be hard, I can't imagine losing those things that you loved and then allowing him just to talk. And then he's like, okay, I'm ready to go. And so, lots of times that it is that they just need that voice, they need to be heard. And I saw a meme once of a skeleton sitting on a bench and it said, here I am waiting to be validated. So, I, you know, lots of people do. And there's times where with my husband, I'm like, you know, I just need you to hear me and validate me. I don't need to hear anything else, you don't need to do anything else.
Hilary: And I think that's so hard for people that tend to be fixers because that's what they want to do, is they want to fix it and they want to brainstorm and they want to come up with options and they want to take over. And you're right, there is a time and a place for that and sometimes that's not necessarily the case. And I think as adults, it's easier for us to be able to vocalize that with our spouse, with our partners, to be able to say, okay, I need somebody else because I'm at a loss. But for kids, they don't necessarily have the vocabulary to say that and so instead of just jumping at solving problems, start with this instead. And I mean, this should be essentially our initial reaction, right? And then from there then we can begin the process of correcting and fixing and doing all the things that we need to do after that.
Jen: It's taking that deep breath and saying, okay, can I use empathy here? And I think lots of times we think as parents, if I use empathy, that then means that I'm not giving consequences or disciplining, and that's not the case at all. You can still use that empathy and let them share their feelings and you can say, you know, that's got to be hard and frustrating and all of those things. But when you're done with that space and every once in a good space, then we can say, you know what, we still need to have a consequence. And I had a dad once told me in a parenting class, he's like, you're just doing all of a touchy feely and thinking that that's going to solve everything and I'm like, no, no, we need to have the touchy feely we need to have getting connected. This is, using empathy is a great way to teach kids about feelings and so letting them learn those feelings. But then, yeah, there's always, I mean, we're not going to correct behavior unless we give them something different to do. We're not going to be able to teach responsibility if they fall through, then there's this consequence. I mean, we talked about consequences a couple of weeks ago, and so there's positives and negatives in life, but we can do it in a very empathetic way.
Hilary: So, I can see how some parents might feel like by using empathy that they're allowing their kids to get away with the mistake and that's not necessarily what we're getting at here. We're not saying to them, oh, you poor baby, I'm so sorry that happened to you don't worry, I'll take care of it. But we're using it first and then giving out the consequence after that. And I love that because we're essentially opening them up for the opportunity to learn, I get it, in a way, it helps soften the blow, right? Because if we can connect and say, oh, that really stinks, you know you flunked your math test because you didn't study the night before, oh yeah, what are you going to do to solve that problem? Or, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry, sweetie, that that your bike got stolen because you didn't put it away, yeah, oh, that's a bummer that now you won't be able to have a bike. I mean, the consequence is still there. Are choosing to use empathy first to help soften that?
Jen: And sometimes with that, like the examples that you just gave, that's all the consequence they need is the bike being lost or flunking the exam. But the empathy along with it is just that softening it of, yep, I'm really sorry that this happened, but this is the consequence. And I just think empathy can go such a long way with creating that nice solid attachment between parent and child that they are connected, we are hardwired for connection. We, as human beings need that and empathy is such an amazing way to encourage that increase it, solidify it whatever you want to say. But, if we can start this with our kids when they're little, just imagine, maybe, just maybe when they come to teens, the communication is a little bit better and it might just take down those teenage tough, tough years down a notch because we've been able to use empathy with our kids.
Hilary: It reminds me of a story someone shared with me in relation to empathy because they were talking about. If we were to, let's say, get in a car wreck on the way home and we're okay, but the car is at pretty bad shape. If we were to come home to our partner and tell them that and our partner responds in a way where they yell and they blame and they say, I cannot believe that dumb decision you have made, how could you do that? Why were you not paying attention? Now, what are we going to do? If our partner reacts in an angry, frustrated defensive way, there was a very good chance we're going to shut down, and next time we have a problem, we're not necessarily going to want to go to that person. But if we come home and tell our partner, hey, I got in the car wreck today and they respond, oh, my goodness, I'm so glad you're okay. How can I help here? Come here come sit down, calm down for a bit? Those are the people who are going to want to go back to in the future when we have potential problems. So, you think about that with your kids, if our kids come home and they have a problem and we brush it aside like it's nothing or we get mad at them or we're too frustrated that even deal with it they learned that. When they learn this isn't necessarily the person that I want to go to when I have a problem, we want them to come to us and so we want to continue to be that go to person that they come to. We’ve got to figure out a way to make our response opening and inviting.
Jen: Yeah, because if it's not us, they'll find someone else and they may not be the best person for them to go to.
Hilary: Exactly! I had a sweet colleague, that she had a daughter who hadn't been asked to prom. And to us as adults, promise, promise, not it's that big of a deal, right, it's one night and there are lots of other dances and dates that they'll go on. But for a teenager, prom is everything and anything that they're thinking at that point in their life and so she was talking about how her daughter came home from school, and she was just so sad and so distraught about how everybody was getting asked and how she wasn't getting asked and how she because she was so embarrassed to even go back to school at that point. And Mom was trying her best to listen and respond in an effective way but after a while, she lost her cool and she said to her daughter sweetie it’s just prom get over it! Her daughter looked at her and said, this is the last time I'm going to tell you about stuff like this, because it is, you know, you think about it, we can't compare our problems to our children's problems to say there's a really small and are really big. We've just got to be available when those problems come to be able to empathize so that they have that opportunity to bounce thoughts and feelings, off of us.
Jen: Yeah. I love how you say, you know, for them, it is big, it is their everything in that moment that little four-year-old that didn't get their fire truck because of the fact that some other child was playing with it? They're not thinking about sharing in that moment they're thinking about, I didn't get play, play with my truck. And it's the same thing with teens, you know, they're not thinking about in the long run problem really doesn't make a big difference in life. But right there in that moment, that is their life, you know, being with their friends, being asked to go to dances and things like that. That is what is important to them and we need to remember not to disqualify, I guess, or there's another word I'm sure that would be better. But just excuse those feelings because then they will go to somebody else or just stop talking in period. And hold all of that in, and that's not a healthy thing either.
Hilary: So, I guess as an application tool for those individuals that are saying to themselves, I'm not an empathetic person, that's just not me. You know, what what's a good piece of advice we can offer these individuals that say that just doesn't come naturally to me. I'm not that type of person, I'm not one of those dealing soft people, I'm more tell it like it is. But what's the advice Jen you think we can offer them?
Jen: I think as I was thinking about, you know, an application piece because, you know, we talk about, yeah, let's empathize and things, but how do I do that? And especially if we're not that type of a person, I think it's first just recognizing that within ourselves and say and coming up with a plan, okay, when I encounter this with my child the next time, this is what I'm going to say and write it down if you need to. Come up with that phrase that when you go into situations like this, that you always have that same phrase to start with. It may be, you know, what you look upset, but sit down and talk and then just let your child talk, because then that allows you to just take that breath and be in that space and then you you're more calm when there is time for you to interject some information. But I think also it's another one is just first identify the feeling that your child is having. So, it's sad or scared or, you know, they're frustrated or they're tired or whatever it is, because then you can always start off and that's what empathy is. You look really tired, that must be hard right now, trying to do your homework when you're so tired, and so I think if you can just recognize that. But I think for people who doesn't come naturally, write down a phrase, come up with that phrase so that you can use it each time until it does become a little bit more natural for you.
Hilary: Yeah, I like that because that way you can cater it to your personality because, you know, I can see a lot of people saying, I'm not. I'm not one of those people that is going to respond by saying, oh baby, I'm so sorry that happened to you, that's just not me. And if that's not the case, then then that's not what we want you to say. We want you to find something that fits you and that fits your personality, because if it doesn't sound natural to you, it's probably not going to sound natural to your child, either. And they're going to look at you and say, exactly, are you saying right now, dad or mom? Right? Yeah. So yeah, picking something that fits you and your personality and your relationship, because the reality is, is that how I empathize with my toddler is probably sound a lot different than how I empathize with my teenager, too. So, I like having that idea of picking my statement and then just kind of rehearsing it over and over again so that when that time comes almost on the tip of your tongue, they'll be ready for it because you prepared mentally for that time. Now you're just waiting for the moment. You know, I'll close with one last story that came to my mind. But I remember that one of my kids, they had to go to the dentist and this was not going to be a good visit. We knew going into it that it was going to be a little rough because my daughter needs to get her tooth pulled. And so, it went exactly as I assumed there were tears screaming, trying to escape from the chair. And I remember sitting in that office, unfortunately thinking the following thoughts. I cannot believe that it is my child that is throwing a tantrum, this is so embarrassing, what are all of these other parents thinking, right? I mean, we do that when we're in public, we worry more about what other people are thinking than what our child is experiencing at that moment. But I remember trying to solve the problem for my child and trying all of these different techniques. I tried to bribe her to stop crying, I tried to threaten her to stop, I tried to lecture her about why it was important to have healthy teeth and why this needed to happen, right? And obviously, nothing was working and I remember thank goodness, my wonderful dentist recognized before I did, that she needed an opportunity to calm down. So, she he left the room and left my daughter and myself, and finally, it took me a while, right?
Finally, at that moment it hit me my daughter is not doing this because she's mean and nasty and wants to embarrass me, she's doing this because she's scared. And so, I remember I went over to her and I hugged her and I looked at her in the eyes and I said, sweetie, I can tell that this is something that's really scary to you. And to me, it looks like you're really scared, is that how you're feeling right now? And she said, yes, and I said, can you tell me a little bit about why you feel this way? And so, we started talking about some of the feelings she was having, which then led us to an opportunity to do some breathing techniques and some calm down techniques. And you know, the reality of the situation was that even if I wanted to take that problem away from her, I couldn't. It wasn't necessarily a problem that I could solve for her but we I empathized with her. We connected both on an emotional level, but also, we were, I was able to help her calm down and relax, and we spent some time snuggling a little bit, which helped to calm her down, calm her body down. But just that ability to connect through empathy, I think, made the difference. Did she still cry through the rest of the appointment? There were still some tears that were shed, and she wasn't necessarily thrilled about the fact that the tools needed to be pulled. But I feel like when I was finally able to recognize, what she needed and what she needed was to be able to have someone validate what she was experiencing at that point. That was that was the difference that was the turning point in that scenario and that's why it's such a powerful tool to have with kids.
Jen: Yes, I love that. I love that you also shared that you didn't handle it great in the beginning and I think lots of parents think, well, okay, it's done and over, I didn't handle it great in the beginning, so it's over and I've just messed up my child. That's not the case. I mean, we always have, you know, that moment of, okay, I didn't handle this great, let me try it another way. And kids feel that other way, and that's what gets connected with them and that's what they remember as, yeah, this was hard in the beginning, but my mom or dad was there for me at the end and it's okay. We always have a second chance and that's where I always say be kind, be kind to yourself and it's a learning process for all of us. I mean, that's what life is every day we're learning something new, and sometimes it's fun, and sometimes it's not all fun. So, I appreciate you sharing that, that story, that's a great story. I want to thank everyone for coming and joining us today and learning a little bit more about empathy. The challenge you just, try one time this week, if this is something that's not natural for you, to try it out and see how it goes. If you would like to get a hold of Hilary or myself, you can email us at Parents@TheFamilyPlaceUtah.org or you can find me on Facebook at Jen Daly - The Family Place. We hope that you have a good week and we will see you back here on Monday.
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