Hard moments in happen in our life and there may be some of us who have experienced many hard and tough things. Resiliency is helps us learn through this moments and help push us forward. In this episode, Julie is here to share some of these tough and vulnerable moments she has experience through grieving a loss of a child to struggling with chronic illnesses.
Julie Hanson Card currently serves as a board member for Share Parents of Utah. She and her husband, Lance, live in Saratoga Springs, Utah and have been married for 12 years. They have a combined total of 8 children (7 living), 2 daughter-in-laws, 3 adorable grandchildren,2 unruly dogs and 1 ridiculously spoiled parrot. Julie enjoys historically senior hobbies such as: rockhounding, metal detecting, bird watching and traveling even though she doesn't even qualify for an AARP membership.
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Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen.
Hilary: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast today. We are excited that you guys are with us. We have our story of Resilience Week with us today and so and so we, Jen and I are excited to introduce our guest. Her name is Julie, Julie Card. and she has quite the story that she wants to share. I'm excited to get to know her a little bit more. So, Julie, I'm just going to turn the time over to you. And if you want to tell. A little bit about you and who you are and then go ahead and tell us about your experiences that you've had.
Julie: Well, thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. So, I will tell you that about two hours ago, I decided it should probably be important for me to look up what resiliency really means to see if I actually fit the definition. And I'm going to be honest, I was like, well some of them are like springing back, bouncing back. And I was like, no. I don't really feel like I did that. One of them was like bouncing back into shape and. And I would like to add a caveat to that. And just say that I would imagine that with every one of our life experiences that when we bounce back, we never bounce back to the actual shape we were in before. We're always a different version, right? So, I don't really know what shape I am now.
Hilary: You know what Jen and I have had this discussion on our podcast before that we don't necessarily love that definition either. I think that you know and we've said this before, you have this visual of a spring, you know, and a spring tenuously goes back to its like you said to its previous shape. And when we have these experiences in our life, whatever those experiences are. I don't think we go back to who we were before. Oftentimes I don't think we want to go back to who we were before. I think the hope with resilience is that we learn through these experiences and through this process and essentially in the end become a better person having lived through it. So, I think you're exactly right, when you when you look at that definition. And you’re like I don't know. I don't know if I if I bounced back or if I am bouncing back or if I'm back to who I was before. I don't know if that's the, I don't know if that's the goal. So yeah, resilience looks different for everybody. And I think for some people that recovery process happens quickly and for others. That may not, but I don't think you're looking into the past. I think it's more of a moving forward into the future now at this stage, at least in my opinion, so.
Julie: Fair enough. I wouldn't disagree with that. First off I. I would say. I listened to some parts of your resiliency, previous podcasts, and certainly everybody has kind of a topic that they settle on. There was 1 gentleman who kind of talked about a few things and I thought, you know, that's really that's really all of us. Right. Like we're not just that one thing or that one event that happened. We're kind of a culmination of all these events that made us bounce back into different shapes. And so I would say for me. The bouncing started when I was 29 and that's when I was pregnant with my second child. His name is Isaac. And my first pregnancy was a high risk pregnancy, so we kind of had an assumption that the second one would be the same. And I was really sick. I have something called hyperemesis. And because of that I ended up with a pick line that ended up causing a blood clot right above my heart. So I was hospitalized for that. And I was just like, this is my sacrifice. Here I am like, like I can basically just lay there in bed, give myself shots in the belly for the blood clot. I was supposed to, you know be 10 minutes away from a hospital in case the blood clot moved and I was like absolutely this is. So one afternoon, my husband and I were out at the movie theaters with our oldest, who was almost four at the time. And I just didn't feel well. Granted, I hadn't felt well for seven months, but just kind of felt a little bit off. And since we met our out of pocket maximum. I was like, well, let's just go to the hospital. So we went to the hospital where they hooked me up and I kind of just felt like uh. A little over paranoid mom. And I was told Nope, everything's great. You can put your clothes on and go. So as I started putting my clothes on, there was a shift change. And the new Doctor came in on shift and less than 10 minutes later, a nurse came in and said the new Doctor looked at the monitoring and we need to fly you. You need to fly up to LDS hospital. And I thought that they were being metaphorical. Like just drive fast cause I was at American Fork. And they're like the helicopter will be here in 10 minutes. And so, I mean, I know that I went into shock. My husband and my child at that time. They just took off. So, I was just left by myself in sitting in this empty room wondering. What the hell just happened to my life? Right. And so I was life lighted up there, and the nurse made a comment to me about now your baby will your baby will be born and probably just be in the NICU for a while. And then when we got on the helicopter and the staff on there took a pair of scissors and cut my shirt open. I just thought this this doesn't feel like like just a let's get to a hospital kind of situation, right? Anyhow, I had an emergency C-section and my son Isaac was born. And then, pretty soon after he was born, he was transported up to Primary Children's Hospital. Where he lived for two days until my husband and I had to withdraw life support. And so, initially I felt really full of faith. I felt surrounded by angels, seen and unseen, you know, I mean, my family was great friends were great, support was great. And I just felt like this is this is the pinnacle. This is, this is the transforming life event. Right. And it just didn't occur to me that that's not how life really works as far as a one and done kind of situation. And so that was a little naïve, obviously. I really struggled after his loss as any parent does after they lose a child. And I wasn't, there was no bouncing back. There was just a lot of people and laying around in my nightgown and letting my oldest watch Barney videos over and over again. Right. So I was connected with a group. at that time, called Share Parents of Utah and I went to their support meetings and they had them once a month at the hospital and that was the only place that I could connect with other lost parents. Which felt very validating for both my husband and I. That's because I didn't really know any other lost moms except for my grandma. And in our neighborhood, it was just like everybody was having babies every other day that were healthy and well and we couldn't even, you know, get a second child here alive. So I didn't feel like I could relate to the surroundings that I was in, even though everybody was very kind and gracious. So anyhow. Grief just takes a toll on people. It's just a really long road that you just have to slog through. A lot of mud. Period. End of story. I personally was fortunate enough that I got to have my rainbow baby seventeen months later. Although that didn't mean that the grief was gone, it just meant that I had a different way to process it now while taking care of a newborn.
A few years later, my husband and I ended up getting a divorce. And I was like, wait, is this isn't part of the plan either you know. We just already go through this thing that for couples breaks, a lot of them. How is this happening now? After almost 14 years of marriage? And then I got really sick right after that and had to have that emergency hysterectomy. So no more kids for me, whether I wanted them or not, right? And then I did get remarried and got 4 bonus children. Add to my 2 and then a few months after we were married, everybody had the stomach flu and I got sick again. But this time I had an autoimmune disease that was activated called Shogren syndrome. As well as an autonomic disorder called POTS or postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. So I just started passing out all the time and it took about two years to get a diagnosis just because a lot of people with chronic health struggles would say that besides finding somebody to besides getting into an appointment, the next hardest thing is, finding somebody to believe you. And that was our situation as well. So when I finally found a rheumatologist who was like, yeah, this is this is what's going on. I was put on medicine. My life would change. I was in bed for almost 2 years, like literally flat. I had to quit my job. I wasn't much of a parent, or at least I didn't feel like I was much of a parent. Blending a family was really hard, and it's also really hard when you're laying in bed and just are nauseous all the time. So that wasn't a storybook kind of situation. Right? And then, just a few years after that, we had one of our children come out to us and we found out through a pretty serious suicide attempt. And I was like, OK, like. I swear to you, the people that live 3 houses down, their lives are looking good. So, what on Earth is going on here? You mean like, haven't I met my quota? And once again trying to remember no, that's just not how life works. Like there, there's not a limit of life. It just is what it right. So we started that journey as well, which was I don't like to call that a trial just because I don't think that's fair for my child. Because they are certainly not a trial. But the expectations of what I thought our family life would look like versus what it ended up being. We're very different. If that makes sense. Yeah. So, so now you know, we're down the line a little bit and. And I got COVID a year and a half ago, which triggered lupus. And they think epilepsy as well. So if I have to declare myself like a resiliency shape, I'm going to say it's round because I've been doing a lot of emotional eating over the last year and a half. But I am really working on that. And I guess, I guess my hope is just that that people know that when rough things happen to them and it doesn't seem like the same amount or technical difficulty of rough things are happening to other people, the fact is we. We don't know what goes on behind closed. Right. We really don't. It was through my divorce that I started having women approach me to share with me what struggles were going on in their marriage, because perhaps I felt like the person who wouldn't judge them because I don't have a marriage anymore. And when my son died, for a number of years, I would be approached by people who had had losses. And it's tough in Utah when everybody seems to have 10 kids just very easily. So it just never stays the same, right? Like that's life for all. It is always changing. And what might feel really dark and really rough today will not always feel that rough. So for the last six years, I actually volunteer with Share Parents at Utah. I've led grief support groups and. I've been on the board for several years and. I also am what's called a hospital companion. So we go into hospitals and mortuaries and birthing centers after a baby has passed, regardless of gestation. Regardless of the reason why. Our primary goal is just to go and support the family. We recognize that we cannot take it away from them, but we just want to let them to know that they're there is hope. I might not feel like that tomorrow or next week, but in time, things won't feel as dark as they feel that day. And so, I spent a lot of the last six years doing share stuff and that has been really fulfilling. And also trying to be an ally for the LGBTQ+ community just because there's a lot of ignorance if we don't have the proximity to somebody who makes different choices than we do. Most of us do not know a trans individual. I didn't know a trans individual before my son. And when he came out the way he did. I remember thinking to myself, I have already buried one child. I know what it's like to pick out a casket. I’m not doing this again like there is nothing in this world that is going to take that bond that I have with my child away. Period, end of story. And I, I unfortunately feel like that was a gift that came out of the loss of my son. Because they recognize that not every parent is to that place. That makes sense. So here I am just trying to keep my house plants alive and serve where I can and rest a lot and drink Diet Coke.
Hilary: That's the answer to life. Let's see, Julie, thank you for being so transparent. Thank you for being open and honest because I know I guarantee there are people listening and hearing your story, and they're taking it in, and they're saying that a part of her story is my story. And being able to hear. These kind words and being able to hear these words of encouragement, that it's not always going to be dark. Like that's essentially, that message could change lives and so I appreciate you sharing that. I'll tell you that my notes have everything that that you shared. The thing that I appreciate the most is just that reminder that everyone has something. I mean, I feel like that is one of those adult life lessons that I have learned that you don't realize as a kid growing up and you don't realize as a teen and you may not even realize as a young adult. Because I think we live in a world where, with social media, everyone looks like they have it all put together. Everyone has a clean house. Everyone has a nice job. Everybody's going on glorious trips, and then you look at your own life and you're like, how come I don't have that? How come everybody else looks like things are going so well for them? And that is, that's one of those things that I just I as an adult, I have learned to understand that some people and we all have different trials and some of them wear them on their shoulder. So, they're very obvious and very clear as to what they are. But some people do not. And so we have no idea. We have no idea what people are living. And so we need to be kind and give people a little bit of grace because they may be dealing with their own demons that we just don't recognize who they are.
Julie: Absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree with that. We can never go wrong with being kind, can we? I mean, we don't have to understand. We don't have to agree. But we can never go wrong with being decent to other people.
Hilary: Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's interesting because you mentioned this as well too, but I had a very similar experience when I had a miscarriage. And I remember being in that situation and thinking that my world was coming to an end and that I was the only one that had experienced this and was feeling these feelings. And it's amazing when you open up about your life, that people come flooding to you. Like you said, you know, to be able to, I know that it's hard and I know to open up a conversation about something difficult or even traumatic takes a lot. But it's amazing to me that when you start to have a conversation for me, having a conversation about a miscarriage, to hear all of the other people say, Oh yes. That happened to me as well. Or I've had that situation multiple times. I'm realizing that you are not alone. And so, I you know, you shared that that experience of having people flock to you and provide, you know, and all of a sudden finding yourself in that role, of being the support. Because I think people know that they need other people and they gravitate towards, you know, those empathetic people. And so it's amazing what you find out when you allow yourself to be vulnerable and allow yourself to talk about those hard things.
Julie: You know, instead of having really cute wreaths from Hobby Lobby on our doors, maybe. We should have it. Like through life vinyl's like I've been divorced, we've been bankrupt. We've lost this and that, like, knock on the door if you want to talk.
Hilary: Come to me, right?
Julie: When you, when you speak about your miscarriage, it reminds me of a really profound statement that one of my friends made in a in a support group some years ago. And that was that lots of times and I. And I could say this regardless of whatever we look at our trial to be right, but lots of times we use the word well, at least it wasn't as bad. At least it wasn't this. So I've heard people obviously say well I just had a miscarriage. You, you know, had to pull your pull your son off life support or, well, my, my child's gay, like you have a trans. I just have a gay child. So, my friend made the comment she had had a later term loss and an earlier loss. And she said when she had her first loss for her, that was, that was her 10. Because that said nothing else to compare it to that was. And when I had my loss of my son, that was my ten, even though our situations were different, the circumstances were different, that babies and our babies were different, right. So. I wish we could kind of figure out as a as a group of humans, how to validate that everybody's 10, feels like a 10 to them? And that and that our pain doesn't have to reach a certain level before we can kind of claim it. Because a 10 is a 10.
Jen: I think it makes me think about. Because I think when we talk about empathy, people think we have to have gone through the exact same thing as that other person, and that's not the truth. We need to be able to tap into those feelings that we've had in, in the experience that we've had in our lives. It doesn't have to be the same. It doesn't even have to be in the same realm. It just needs to be that you can tap into those feelings as well.
Julie: I absolutely agree.
Hilary: So, Julie. You know, I think kind of going along with this conversation that we're having. I think so often people on the outside, friends, family members, neighbors, whoever that may be, they see that we may be struggling and maybe so. So for your example with dealing with that loss of your child. As being somebody that wants to support and to provide that help and assistance, what did you find was most helpful through that process that that you received from others?
Julie: Unfortunately, I probably have a list of things that. Were not helpful. That is longer than the.
Hilary: Which we probably want to know too, right? To be honest with you.
Julie: I think my lived experience has generally been that we do not like to see people uncomfortable and we do not like to see people hurt or crying and that we feel like it's some kind of God-given duty to. Help sucker them in their affliction. And make it go away. And I wish that we could figure out how to be more comfortable just letting people be where they're at, wherever that is, and not try to religiously give dogma to help buoy them, their spirits, or to give platitudes that might be helpful in a year but really aren't right this. 2nd that we. Could just let people cry and be sad. And grieve and just. Just sit there with our mouth shut. Like I think that would be my biggest piece and don't get me wrong like I am a talker so I struggle with this with my own kids because I'm like I have so many things I want to share. With you and tell you. Right. But. But doesn't everybody have? Their lived experience gives them enough. Wisdom to run their own life. Versus having others try to run it for them. Their words of advice or encouragement. And so my sister and brother-in-law and my mom, I think my that we spent literally six months after my son died playing settlers of Catan several nights every week. We did not talk about him. They just let me play a game and not have to be in my world of grief that I was in 20-3 other hours of the day. And that was really important number. You know, unfortunately, I hate that game now because I'm tapped out, right. Besides that they kind of just unwittingly just let us be where they didn't try to fix it. They didn't try to. You know, give us positive sentiments all the time. They just allowed us to grieve and that that just takes time regardless of this, what's what your grief is stemming from. It just takes time and nobody can rush that.
Hilary: I remember a few months, maybe weeks ago, Jen and I interviewed a grief counselor, and she essentially gave that same advice. She and you know nothing that anybody else is going to say is going to take that pain away. I mean, that's just the nature of the beast. But yes, like, don't worry about finding the right words, cause there are no right words at that point. It's just a matter of, like, sit next to me and hug me and listen to me. And just like you said. Just be there. You don't need to provide those fancy words that are going to take the pain away because that is not going to happen. So, this be in the moment with that person.
Hilary: Yeah, go ahead Jen.
Jen: I think there's lots of different situations as well that. We do have that grief it may not be losing somebody to death or whatnot, but it could be. I mean, that divorce there was a sense of loss. And there's a a grieving process that you have to go through. My stepdaughter came out as well and there is a grieving process for that of. What our idea was for her getting older and getting, you know, in relationships and things like that. And so there is that grieving process that you can go through. And I think that's one mistake that we make a lot is we think ohh they just came out you know. Either buck up and you know love them or. Don't love them and push them off to the side and.
Julie: It's not that easy. No, I when my child came out. I I literally think that I cried every day of 2016 and 17 and they know that and it makes them feel horrible. But I share that just because I was grieving what I thought our future would look like and my husband is very stoic and he always tells me Julie. Every time we have expectations, we will be disappointed. Only thing that we can have expectations for is for ourselves. My struggle is, but I didn't even know that I had those expectations. Yeah, it didn't even occur to me that I would be sad about. XY or Z right? Like when I got sick this last year and had to kind of pull back from some of the things that I had been able to to start doing again to feel like I had a normal life. If I was like, hey, I've already. I've already been through this grief of disease and can't live a normal life or go on a hike in the woods, right? And then I was like, oh, but you expected that you had gotten to the point and that now everything was gonna be fine. It never occurred to you. Well, you might actually get an additional disease. Or this might happen, or this might happen right? And so, I'm trying to be more mindful of only applying expectations to myself, because that's all I can control. You know, for everybody else. It's just love. I do not do that well, perfectly. My kids tell me that I'm like the Barbara Walters of the family and I ask a lot of questions, but. So I'm working. I love Barbara Walters.
Hilary: That's a good thing. You know, I've I'm sure I've shared this on our podcast before, different on a different episode, but and I've talked about my daughter before, who has who has hearing loss. And I specifically remember her therapist that she was. Working with and she this was at this point in the appointment she turned to me because this was to mom. This wasn't necessarily to her. Like you said, this was to me. I needed to remember this. But she said, you know, our goal for her is to find a way for her to allow her to live her best life. However, her I need you to understand that her best life is going to look different than her siblings. Best life. Yeah, and it was such a good reminder to me that I cannot compare her experience to her siblings who do not have hearing loss, like her journey is going to look different. Her, you know, her life is going to look different. And so I shouldn't expect those same things of all my children. And so for me, it was like a yes. Can I do everything possible to support her in this, you know, in this progress? Yes, but I've gotta recognize that to some degree that's out of my control and that she's going to do whatever she decides to do in this life. And I'm gonna cheer her on, right. And I'm going to a be her best supporter. But yeah, I mean, those expectations. Those are a tricky thing because I think we all have them unknowingly it.
Julie: No, I 100% agree and thank you for sharing that because. How different would motherhood be if we didn't go into it, or if somebody said to us, look, these are what expectations can look like when you're given this precious little baby or when you marry and get these beautiful little bonus kids, right. These are what it can look like. But I want to remind you that your life and your journey are yours, and theirs is theirs, and the two generally are not the exact they are not the same path. I wonder how differently I could have maybe dealt with some of the rough spots of raising kids. If I had not taken their choices so personally, if that makes sense.
Jen: Yeah, that needs to be needlepoint on a on a pillow.
Julie: I know, but my arthritis is too bad, so I'm just. I would have to cricket it or something.
Hilary: So, I'll have to learn how to do it. So Julie, you mentioned your work with the Share Parents and obviously that has been something that has helped you kind of work through this process. But is there anything else that comes to your mind? That that you did as part of this journey to kind of help aid through that grieving process and quote un quote bounce back to an extent.
Julie: Well, I think. I actually was. I actually was at a beautiful watch party last night for two therapists who were unveiling a video that is 40 minutes, generally for family on how to support their loved one who has gone through a loss. And something that they mentioned that I had forgotten about is that when we look at infant and pregnancy loss, we often think about the five stages of grief, but that those were initially written for the person who was going to die. Not for the people who were in their support circle. And so instead of expecting that I've got these five stages that I might go through everyone. Of them by noon. A different way that a doctor named Alan Wolfe felt talks about is the stages of reconciliation. And I really appreciated being reminded of that because. And you've probably seen this, both of you have seen this in your work the way that people might handle a very similar situation can go from here to here and everything between that would be on the normal part of the spectrum. I remember 1 lost mom and at two weeks she's like I'm back at Vasa and I'm going to schedule in crying time into my calendar every day. And I just thought, oh, that's so sweet talk to me a couple weeks after that. Right that that's how she wanted to start, cause that that gave her some control where literally for me, I didn't know what day it was. I had forgotten to bathe. I pretty much wore my house robe and I ate raw cookie dough every single day. And that is how I initially coped. And so, I'm grateful that people just let me be. That then also look for warning signs of when you're stuck in the grief and building a house there rather than just being a visitor.
Hilary: I'm jotting that down literally, as you say that because I'm like, that is a great thing to remember, yes.
Julie: And it was really, don't you think it's really hard with any loss of anything that we thought our life was going to be like, you know, how long can I be in this space before I should probably get some professional help? And it's kind of different for everybody, but obviously. Some things I've learned from other lost parents are. Or when you're starting to have plans that your life is not working and it is time to end your own life, right, that you've built, you've built a pretty big structure in the place of grief, and it would really help to have somebody guide you past that. You know, so I feel like I was almost there. And that was really scary. But, but that's just where I was.
Hilary: Yeah. So, if this question is too intimate, then feel free to disregard it. But did you find that? So did you yourself, was therapy something that you got involved in or that was just. If needs be, then you have that open.
Julie: I wish. I wish everybody in the world could have like a therapist on a retainer or speed dial. I recognize therapists want and need boundaries, but.
Hilary: We really need them though.
Julie: Honestly Like, can't we all benefit from just having more tools?
Hilary: Oh yeah.
Julie: Or just to have somebody besides our mom or our sister our best friends. They that's really normal because when it comes from somebody like that, somebody who's close to you, you're like well. That's what you're supposed to say. And somebody who you consider to be a professional says you know what. You are completely normal for where you're at in your journey. Then look like. Well they are they are a brain surgeon. They are so smart I absolutely believe in the merits of counseling.
Hilary: Yeah, sometimes just finding that person. I mean, I think we have our social support, but they are emotionally connected to this situation as well and emotionally connected to us. And so having that person that may not be emotionally connected to the event, I think is sometimes exactly. What we need cause you're right, then they can see it in, you know, more of a black and white logistical type setting where we we're looking at it with maybe just heart, which I mean obviously you need both sides of it, but. Yes, I think sometimes those friends and family are good and I think that we need them for certain situations but sometimes we need somebody that maybe is outside of that circle as well too.
Julie: I agree, I agree.
Hilary: So, I want to ask how are you doing today? March 24th? Or May, if I can get the date right here.
Julie: Today is a good day. My youngest or our I guess I should say our youngest graduates from high school in two days. I've already mentally stopped parenting and I'm like. Whatever. Just whatever. I actually started volunteering for the state of Utah in their cultural stewardship program, which means that so I, you know, all of us have heavy stuff, right. But we've got to find things that also bring the lighter parts of life. So yesterday I got to spend the day driving to the desert to look at some historical sites that I am a steward over now and listen to some John Denver in the car and I was like this day is perfect. It doesn't matter if I go home and I have insomnia or I have a seizure and tomorrow. I wake up with a flare cause I've been in the sun, like this day, was worth it. Does that make sense?
Hilary: Oh yeah. I'm glad that today is a good day and I'm glad that you've found those experiences in your life that bring you joy that I think I that is something that we need to be better at is finding those little moments. And sometimes those big moments. Where we can say, you know what, I feel that joy today and that didn't take away the hardship. Right. Like it's still going to be there. Maybe tomorrow. But I'm going to find joy throughout that process too, so.
Julie: Yep, exactly, I agree.
Hilary: So, as we're kind of coming to our close and our time, maybe the last question I want to offer is what final advice that maybe you haven't shared or you want to reiterate. Would you offer to families and to individuals that are going through a hard time? Whether that be an experience that you personally had yourself or just hard times in general.
Julie: I'm not sure. Why? But I don't like the phrase. There's always a light at the end of the tunnel. I just don't like it. It maybe gives a false sense of how short or long the tunnel really is. And so. I actually did a Mortuary call 2 days ago with the sweetest family, right? And I didn't have anybody come serve me in the hospital because my son died at primary children's. But I was still in the hospital at LDS Hospital. And I wish. You know, I'm sitting here in the recovery of Labor and delivery and the people next door have obviously just had the most amazing day in their life happened because everybody and their dog is in the next room partying and it is loud and it is exuberant and it is boisterous. And I'm here sitting here thinking. My milk is going to come in and I have to plan a funeral for this Friday. I wish somebody could have just come in and been like. I know that. I know that you don't know how you're going to get through this, and I know that today feels so dark and so heavy. But I just want you to know that there are other people who are a little farther along who are letting you know that it won't always feel like this.
Hilary: I was going to say we just need to end with that because that was such a beautiful message and before, before you make Jen and I cry, I'm going to just turn it over to her. Because Julie, you are a fantastic human being and I appreciate you sharing the story and. Yes, there's so many gems that have been shared today that going to change lives so. Thank you.
Julie: Thank you very much.
Jen: Very profound and. Great information and I appreciate it. It's not only going to help you know our listeners, it's those little pieces. You spoke your truth and that is powerful and is going to change the way I view things. So, I appreciate that coming from you and you sharing that and being vulnerable and sharing your experience. I appreciate it so much. I want to thank our listeners coming today and listening to our wonderful podcast. Hopefully you can take a lot of these gems from Julie and apply them in your life. At least try one and we thank you. And remember to be kind and patient with yourself and we will see you here next week.
Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly - the Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is theFamilyPlaceUtah.org If you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes, we'd love to see you there.
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