Chelom Leavitt is a professor at BYU who focuses on building healthier relationships. Today she is here to talk about the importance of healthy intimate relationship. From talking learning how to talk to your kids about sex, opportunities for intimacy, and anxiety in intimate moments, she knows know all. While this can sometime be an uncomfortable topic but is so important when building healthy relationships! Don't miss this episode!
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Hey listeners, this episode contains discussions on sensitive topics that may be difficult to hear and may not be suitable for young ears. Check our show notes for more specific details of what is covered in this episode. Take care of yourself.
Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen.
Nicole: Welcome to the Parents Place Podcast with your hosts Jen and Nicole, and we are here today with Chelom Leavitt. She is a professor and researcher from BYU and she studies relationships, so I can't wait to talk to you about all things relationships and hopefully healthy communicative relationships. Chelom, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Chelom: Yeah. Thank you for having me. First of all, this is such a great podcast, I love what you guys do! Yeah, a little bit about myself. I got my PhD at Penn State. I study mindfulness and sexuality, sexual relationships, really and so specifically I kind of focus on how being mindful during sex can really help couples connect and feel greater intimacy and closeness with one another that it's really, you know, sex is a really powerful tool. So, when we're using it effectively, when we're using it in ways that create connection, it's a power. It's a powerful positive tool when we're really kind of pitting our needs against our partners needs and not communicating, it's a really destructive tool so it can cause a lot of problems in relationships. So, we really like to focus on how can we help couples improve their relationships through healthy sexual relationships.
Nicole: Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks Chelom. Well, Jen, you wanna get us started?
Jen: Want to? I don't know.
Nicole: So how did you get, I guess I'll get us started. How did you get into this line of work? Like, what made you think this is what I want to focus on?
Chelom: Yeah, you know, I was just. I'm a lawyer as well. And I was actually working over in eastern. Europe and at that time, Ukraine had the highest divorce rate in the world, and I was noticing these families and couples just falling apart and really struggling to create good, strong, vibrant relationships. And so, when I came back to the states, I just did a little research ended up getting a Masters degree in marriage, family and human development and then going on for my PhD, and it was in my PhD where I was exposed to mindfulness and it just was such an obvious tool that needed to be explored in terms of sexuality. Right mindfulness, the whole goal of mindfulness is to reduce anxiety. To help you focus on your moment, the present moment. And I thought, well, you know, the biggest problem in sexuality is anxiety. Right, anxiety is the enemy of arousal, of connection, and so I thought, wow, if we could use if we could be more mindful and sexual interactions, that has got to have a positive effect. And so that's really what the focus of my dissertation work was. And we explored it in a number of different ways. And then I ended up not only creating a measure, but also creating a class, an intervention, that we could actually teach couples to be more mindful during this intimate, you know, relationship of actuality and we've, we've actually studied it in a number of different populations. We've followed people longitudinally and what we found is it has a big positive impact.
Jen: I'm just thinking if you can get both partners on the same page. And comfortable enough to talk about their relationship, their intimate relationships, that is going to be 10 times better and then to add mindfulness on top of it while you are together, it's going to make it. I mean that connection is so important for people. And yeah, it just makes total sense. I just, I'm always surprised at how many partners don't like to talk about their intimate relationships with one another. And so that always surprises me.
Chelom: Yeah, I think that Doctor David Schnarch, who's a therapist, did some research and found that most couples were not talking much about sex at all, and these were married couples, right? So, they're committed to each other. They want a good relationship. But for whatever reason, we've kind of been socialized that this is a taboo topic that even, you know, if you're committed to each other in this loving relationship. It seems awkward. We don't have the words or the skills to really dive into things deeply, and then our anxiety gets the best of us. And so, we just kind of ignore it and don't talk about it. And we know that communication is one of the biggest predictors of a healthy sexual relationship.
Nicole: No. You mentioned about anxiety, and I'm sitting here thinking a lot about shame. Like I Brené Brown is my girl and obviously shame researcher. And how much does shame play a part in in the kind of breakdown of this too? Yeah.
Chelom: Well, we know it plays a part. I'm not sure I've seen percentages on it, but we know that so many people are feeling like sex we kind of fall into two camps, right? We either feel like sex is a little bit shameful or awkward, a little taboo or something, just not appropriate to talk about or we're super like joking and laughing and making fun of it so that it's kind of light and maybe a little inappropriate or edgy and so. And for a lot of people, that doesn't feel good either. And we know it doesn't really create deep intimacy. And so, if you fall into one of these two camps. It's not contributing to this meaningful conversation that we're talking about. So how do we get in the middle? And it's not even the middle. It's like a different mindset all together. How do we approach it in this way that this is a great topic? It's important for us. How can we open it up, but especially within my relationship, you know, with my, with my partner, with my spouse, who I'm working to create a lasting, loving relationship. And so, you know, I teach a class on how to do this I also you know, know the research on it and this is something that we've got somebody has to breach. You know that that vacuum broaching the conversation and saying, hey, I think we have to be more open with each other. I think this is important for the health of our relationship.
Nicole: Right.
Jen: I was just. You made me think about just how to approach that conversation. If it has been that difficult topic to talk about between partners. But I'm also thinking because you're a professor at BYU, I'm part of the major religion here. We're in Utah as well, and I'm thinking of young like people that are just getting married and it has been that taboo topic. You know, it's like, no, no, no. And then they say I do. And then it's like, OK, go and do and so, I'm thinking. There's got to be communication, even there in that engagement part of your relationship of how are we going to address this? You know, how are we talk about? I don't know what do you think or what are some suggestions in that area.
Chelom: Ohh that's such a big topic. Right. So I know the Utah Marriage Commission is trying to promote some premarital education classes to kind of open up this conversation a little more. I know that other groups you guys are trying to do the same, right? How can we have a pretty open conversation, even in this engaged part, particularly if we're waiting until marriage to start engaging in a sexual relationship, we need to be pretty clear with each other what our expectations are and start investigating whether or not we have some hang ups that we're going to have to overcome and how we can do this together, right? One of we know one of the biggest elements of a healthy sexual relationship is a healthy emotional relationship. I love there's a. Oh, a number of thoughts, but I love this one by Doctor Timothy Keller, who says something along the lines of if I am disclosing to my partner things about me, thoughts I've had, dreams, ambitions, disappointments that I've had that I really haven't shared with others. And I'm opening myself up to really be challenged but challenged with love, right, and we're really sharing with each other this deep part of who we are emotionally. Then it's like we are undressing emotionally right? I'm going to show you my naked soul. And from that. It is an easy transfer to undressing physically, right? I've shared who I really am with this person. And now as I share my body as well, that's a natural outgrowth of that. But when we just focus on the physical first, we are undermining a little bit the long-term relationship because then we don't have as much of a foundation of the emotional, the hopes and dreams all of these things. And so I would say to people who are in that category right, who are waiting until marriage, make sure that you are paying attention to, first of all, how emotionally connected you are and whether or not you can talk about this topic comfortably with one another. And that you are setting your expectations for things that are realistic. I just shared with my class last week, one of them said you know. I'm getting married in a in a couple of months. What would your advice be? Should we have, you know, penetrative sex on our wedding night? And I paused for a second and I said, I know we are in this mindset, that it's no, no, no until marriage. And then go, go, go. Right. That's kind of been the catch phrase. But I'm not sure that that's the healthiest attitude. Certainly we want to understand what each other's expectations are and be loving and kind and meet those needs. But we also need to realize that we don't have to have penetrative sex on our wedding night just because now we have permission to start engaging in a sexual relationship, what might be more healthy is to say we have really been focused on our friendship, knowing each other emotionally. Spiritually, intellectually and now the wedding is this marker of now we're going to get to know each other in a more intimate, physical way. That doesn't necessarily mean I have to have intercourse. We could just share each other's bodies, seeing each other naked is going to be mind blowing, right? Umm, just starting down the process in a in a slow kind of mindful way, not feeling rushed to have to act on any particular time. Schedule now if that works for you, if you, if you want to move that quickly, great. There's nothing prohibiting it. We don't as long as we're really respecting what each others expectations are, and physical arousal needs are right. We know women take longer to feel arousal. Then and do so we kind of have to slow down arousal just a little bit so that women can speak up and have their needs met, and then we know it's a better experience, both partners, men and women report higher sexual satisfaction when that's the approach, right when we take things a little slower, that's really what sexual mindfulness is about. It's kind of slowing down the process. Being aware of thoughts, emotions, physical sensations that come up and giving a little space to maybe talk about those or even process it ourselves instead of rushing right through and feeling like we've got to get to orgasm or this is a fail.
Nicole: So, I my role is I do Parents As Teachers program and so I am, you know interacting with parents and children and helping create attachment and bonding and just helping with healthier attachment. And I've got three girls of my own, and I know that there's, like, a lot of stigma. I grew up with a lot of stigma around this. It was it was very taboo for me growing up, and they don't want that for my girls. Do you have any suggestions on like how to approach this subject and stuff with kids. How can we make sure that they're not, you know, experiencing all this anxiety and shame around this when the time comes? Or, you know, throughout their life?
Chelom: Yeah. Great question. Wow. And there's so much to unpack. There right, the truth is how parents are talking about their children's body as infants impacts our body image, right. Our self-esteem. It also contributes to how well we can regulate our own emotions or even identify our own emotions. It has so much to do with how we feel autonomous. Or a lack of autonomy. And so I would say start from the get go, right. Call a vagina a vagina and a penis a penis and a vulva a vulva, and instead of, you know, just the funniest term I've ever heard is the nether regions, right? That's what they call their genitals regions. Well, like, who knows what that's referring to, right? And particularly if a child has, you know a little irritation or maybe a little sore around their genitals. Or maybe they get hurt. You know, they fall down on something and have a little injury. If our children have the right terminology. They're empowered to tell us exactly what is going on. When we use. Kind of fake terms or silly terms. We know it actually impacts their self esteem, their, how they look at themselves. And so, I would say start from the beginning, right, use the right terminology then as they get older, answer their questions. Don't be embarrassed about it. Don't say, Oh my gosh, I can't believe you're thinking about that. Or shame them as they try to learn about their genitals. You know, oftentimes, that's a child's first experience with shame. Is their parents slapping their hand away in the tub when they are discovering that they have a penis or that they have a vagina? And that's usually the first time they notice it, right? They are discovering all parts of their bodies. I remember my little 7 year old when she was about two discovered that she had an elbow and that it had a name, and so she would run all over the house saying elbow, elbow. Well, it's no different, right? For genitals that they're just learning about this. And so, if we notice them touching their genitals instead of being shaming about it. You say, hey, do you know that's called your penis and then distract them, right? So, it's not something that they obsess on, but that they know about it's comfortable. And then at some point, you know 7-8-9, give them a complete picture of what sex is and isn't right, that it isn't abuse, it isn't control, it isn't manipulation. It is a beautiful bonding, sharing of bodies. You know, it's always best if mom and Dad together can have this conversation and just that example shows them so much that this is something that is important. It's healthy in our relationship. We enjoy it. And it's something you can look forward to at some point when you're in a committed relationship, right? This is going to be a beautiful part of that relationship and then you know what's interesting is so many, so many parents will say I'm afraid if I tell my kids about sex, that that's going to stir their curiosity. They're going to go well. What's interesting is we know from research, the opposite is true, that children who have their questions answered in a satisfy satisfactory way. They are less likely to engage in risky sexual behavior, so it's almost like we're pre arming them with this healthy attitude towards their own sexuality and that their body is beautiful and magnificent and that it's capable of these really wonderful elements of attachment and connection. All of these things and ultimately you know, having a child of their own, you can you can throw that part in there about this is how babies are made, but that doesn't need to be the main focus, right. We can talk about it just in in its own separate discuss. And then in another separate discussion, talk about sexual safety. Right. Don't conflate those two because then it makes them fearful about. Instead, say yeah, there are some people who would take advantage of others who would treat their bodies unkindly. And I want you to know, I'm here for you and please come and talk to me and then go through some of those things that they can look for and help them feel empowered with speaking up and not being, you know, drawn into those sorts of things.
Nicole: Well, OK, you just made me feel a little bit better about my parenting. I'm like, I'm doing all those things most of the time I feel like I'm faking it until I make it because it is uncomfortable for me because this is not how I was raised and I just want to do better for my kids. So, a lot of times I'm just like that is what this is called and this is what we.
Chelom: And let me give a little, let me give a little word of encouragement to those who maybe haven't been as skillful as you have been. If you haven't done that with your little children and now they're teenagers. It's not too late. Go ahead and have that conversation and say, sweetie, I know this is going to be awkward and really this falls on me. I should have done this much earlier, but we're going to start opening up this conversation so that you can always come to me and ask me questions. Rather than going to the two worst sources which the Internet and your peers, right? You can come to me for good information and we're going to have a comfortable, positive conversation, right? That's the next step. And if if you've missed the first step, it's OK you can still, you know, catch up.
Nicole: I love that that was great.
Jen: It reminds me when I was teaching parenting classes, I would always teach about the importance of using proper body terms. And also having those consistent conversations through as they grow and they're like, well, what happens if they ask question more and more questions than I want that I think then then what happens if they ask more questions than I think that they need. And I would say. Answer their question because if you don't answer it, they'll go to another source. Now, I'm not telling you to go on beyond that. For their age and their development levels answer the questions they have. And if they say and when you say, is that all you have? Do you have any other questions? And they say no, I'm good. Call it good for that moment. And then when they get a little bit older, you have a conversation again and answer those questions. And so I think parents just get afraid of that, of giving them too much information. But really we do need to answer the questions that they do have.
Chelom: Yeah, I think you're spot on even in terms of sexuality, right? In fact, we call it just answering the question simply. You don't have to go beyond what they asked and then see if they have. If they're, if they're asking a question they're old enough to know the answer to that, but again, do it simply. Just like you're saying, and then they may or may not ask another question. Yeah.
Nicole: Love it. Just a funny story about that I with three girls, periods come up a lot in our house. We are we are very prepared for all periods. We're talking about it, I think at dinner one time at to my oldest, but obviously my younger two were there too and. And I was explaining all women have eggs and blah blah blah and. Then, like the conversation was over and my middle daughter goes. So we're actually birds and we have to sit on our eggs. How did that go so wrong?
Chelom: That's so cute. Oh, my goodness. That's so cute. So it just brings up a thought for me, is that we really need to make sure that parents understand if you have all girls like you, do you also need to teach your girls not only about their body and how they're going to mature, but also about boys bodies and how they mature. And how they go through this process and boys need to learn about girls, right, so that we can have this compassionate understanding of each other.
Nicole: Well, I need to add that to my To Do List because that is. That is not something that I have thought about, so thanks for bringing that up.
Jen: My brother-in-law. That was all boys in your family never taught anything about girls. Poor thing. Had to have my mom. They came up to get married or came to get married and. Yeah, my mom had to explain some things, and so did my sister. So that is a good thing, is to this is what is happening with boys. This is what's happening with girls and. Yeah, so. But with all of this, go ahead.
Chelom: And you know. Ohh, I'm sorry, I was just going to say if you think about it, it helps boys and girls not tease each other so much, right? There's there can be some understanding of, you know that would be kind of hard to have a period once, once a month, and I'm not going to be so flippant about how girls in my class or whatever are maturing. Instead, I can understand as a boy or as a girl that we're all being challenged as we go through that maturation process and just give a little kindness to one another.
Nicole: And I think it really I think if we can do this. Well, it will help with you know when they do get into relationships and do go into marriage and you know, just like you were saying like even peers have more empathy and more open communication.
Chelom: Yes. Yeah, not that they're talking about it amongst themselves, but or they maybe. But what I hope that it's doing and I have observed this, I don't think we've done a study on it, but is that there will be some wise understanding. How to relate with each other in a kind and compassionate way.
Nicole: Hmm, I love that.
Jen: With all this kid talk, I'm thinking about parents who have just gotten stuck in that rut. In their own intimate relationships and sex and. Just how do you get out of that rut?
Chelom: I love that question. Because you know what that's going to hit 100% of couples. All of us are going to experience that at some point, right, and we need to be able, like you're saying we need to have a few tools for how to overcome it. I really like some work by Esther Perrell, who she talks about disrupting the contrive the contrivance of monotony. Which is kind of a fancy way of saying how can I overcome boredom, or when we become so ingrained in this routine, and what she suggests is that we deep in intimacy. Now how do we do that? We see each other anew is one way that she describes it. So instead of seeing your partner as your Co parent and the guy who takes out the garbage, or the gal who does the laundry and makes dinner or whatever it is, instead we look at them for a second. And this takes a little mindfulness, right? We look at him and say. He's a man who has desires and ambitions, and I knew him before all of these roles took place and all of my roles took over our lives, right, and go back to those things that we saw initially and overlay them on how I see them now. And maybe ask some questions or reveal something about yourself. Right. Sometimes we get so caught up in our roles as mom and dad or workers or whatever it is that we forget to be passionate with each other. We forget that a lot of scism that needs to disrupt the normal routine and draw us together so that we can have that healthy connection to create that deeper intimacy. And you know, it just takes someone willing to disrupt that, that equilibrium of monotony.
Nicole: When you were talking about that, I was thinking about how I recently I I found a scrapbook that I had made of like, all of our engagement pictures and our wedding day. And like the times in between those big moments and like how we used to look at each other and they sent a couple to my husband and like. Do you remember when? Like and and I my therapist had has told. I mean you. Know like play the remember when game. You know just that maybe I don't know. You tell me, but that could maybe help dip your toe in the waters to disrupt them.
Chelom: Yeah, absolutely. That's a great suggestion. And I would say even this, what if you have gotten into a place where instead of just monotony, maybe there's even a little conflict, right? Maybe there's a little tension between the two of you. I just like to remind couples that conflict is actually the opportunity for greater intimacy. Here we are at this impasse with each other. Here's my opportunity to get to know my partner better. Why do you think that? Why have you taken such a stand on that? Why are you upset about that? Right. And hopefully they're asking you the same thing. And as we explore that, we deepen our intimacy with each other and we get to know each other in ways that we hadn't. We revealed parts of ourselves. What's so interesting is everyone feels like there's this, this soft underbelly that they're afraid to reveal to their partner, this person who loves them. I'm still afraid to reveal that to and so when we have the courage to do that, what really happens is just what Esther Perrell was describing. We create some passion. We know something new about this person, and it creates this well, of love and desire for them. Right. And so, the very thing that sometimes drives couples apart is the very thing that can draw them together. But unfortunately, we let the tip of the wedge. Into our relationship and let it stay and justice divide us rather than let it draw us close to one another.
Jen: And I think that's one of the big misconceptions that we have. Is that conflicts gonna, it's just going to pull us apart instead of that, it can actually bring us are together.
Chelom: Yeah. Aren't we seeing that everywhere in the world we becoming a little polarized even within our relationships and instead of realizing, here's this beautiful opportunity for me to build a bridge with you and for us to appreciate how we're different, but that we also belong with each other.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jen: Are there other misconceptions that people have about just intimate relationships and.
Nicole: Ohh yeah, so many. Yeah, you know. So, what's interesting is one that's really common is that a lot of time couples get caught up in this in this trap of thinking that we both have to just be alike in our desire for sex. What we know from research is there is always a higher desire partner and a lower desire partner. Now it might be that in sex and research bears this out pretty strongly is that men have a higher desire for sex. For sexual frequency, and really what we're talking about there is for sexual intercourse. Women often are the higher desire for cuddling, for emotional connection, you know, for other sexual activities. And so, both of them end up being the higher and the lower desire partners. In different topics, I and I always like to kind of take it out of the sexual realm and talk to my students about so they can kind of understand this. I'm I say I'm the higher desire partner for keeping a clean house, right, keeping a tidy house. My husband is definitely the lower desire partner. So how do we go about negotiating that difference? Uh, you know, do I just badger him and put him down and say you don't care about me because you know, whatever. Or do I say, hey, you know what? I feel really good when the house is tidy and things are orderly. I feel like I can explore other things in my life. Could you help me and help create, you know, a good, clean, organized environment? Same sort of approach has to occur in sex, right? If I'm the higher desire partner, I can't be badgering and belittling my partner instead, I want to invite them to feel more desire for this to understand the benefit of engaging in sexual activity. Whether it's the cuddling or whether it's intercourse. Right. So these differences, really again, are these opportunity for greater intimacy as I express to you why I have higher desire for sexual intercourse? What I'm really saying is that I desire you. I want to be with you. I want to share this part of our lives. And if we can be vulnerable enough to talk about that generally partners create more connection instead of creating more division.
Nicole: Going along with that, if you could give people that are listening 3 tips, three pieces of advice, I know you are a wealth of knowledge and to boil that all down the three things, how do we get started? What are the three most important things that we need to know?
Chelom: Yeah. I guess first of all, I would say. You got to know yourself. So you're going to have to spend a little time loving you, right? Getting to know you and feeling good about who you are. And then revealing who you are to your partner. Right so often. We know so many of the problems couples are having is because we are hesitant to be emotionally disclosing with each other. We don't really share those secret little dark corners of our mind. For the weakness that we're sure will be disliked for and so if we can to be vulnerable and emotionally disclosing with each other, we're going to naturally create greater connection love, you know, bonding with each other and then the next one, I think probably just goes along with that and that is when conflict arises and it's going to right, it does in very single person's relationship. Many times, yeah, we get to practice the skill of really understanding that conflict is an opportunity for intimacy. Differences are an opportunity for intimacy. And how can I dig down and explain why I have the perspective I do? And then also hear why my partner has the perspective they do and again you know kind of cross that bridge. Really valuing what we each believe and where we're coming from, but then understanding we can create a connection, we can still belong with each other as we go through this process. It's really this, you know, this idea of becoming who I am being independent and autonomous. And a solid thinker. Clear on what I need and want, but then sharing that with my partner in this way that we can come together and belong with one another while still being too strong independent beings. And then the last one I would say is practice a little mindfulness because likely these two processes we just described are going to create some anxiety. So, for me to really do those two things. I'm going to have to slow down, learn to calm myself and sit with discomfort a little bit and allow the process to kind of unfold and see how now we truly do love each other. Despite these struggles and differences. And how can I tolerate the discomfort long enough that we can find a solution? And that's really mindfulness.
Jen: I'm so grateful that you were able to come and talk with us today. Such a great wealth of knowledge and lots of little things that all of us can take, and put into our lives and practice.
Chelom: Thank you.
Jen: So, thank you. I want to thank our listeners for coming today and hopefully you have learned something to better your intimate relationships. With your partner and we hope that you remember to be kind and patient with yourself, and we will see you next week.
Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly – The Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is thefamilyplaceutah.org if you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes, we'd love to see you there.
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