Have you tried it all when it comes to stress relief? Is yoga not your thing? Deep breathing doesn't seem to work? Amanda Stanley is here to offer a new option! Come learn about being present, removing stress, regulation and more!
Guest Bio: After 20 years working in human service organizations, including 9 years as CEO of DePaul Community Resources, Amanda started her company, The Artisan Leader, in 2022. She helps organizations create cultures where people, vision, and ideas can grow. Integrating the arts into her work, she infuses creativity, compassion, and courage into the C-suite and beyond through leadership development, strategic planning, and executive coaching. Amanda’s formal education includes a Bachelor of Arts in sociology and art and a Master of Science in sociology. She lives in Bedford, VA with her family of four.
Subject Resources:
Amanda's website with free PDF resource: https://www.theartisanleader.com/thedoodlingcollective
Upcoming Doodling Session - Free to attend but registration is required
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Can't Listen? Read the Transcrtiption:
Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen.
Nicole: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast. We've got Nicole and Hilary and our guest, Amanda Stanley. She's going to talk to us about the benefits of doodling. I'm really excited to talk to you, Amanda. Do you want to just introduce yourself and give us a little background.
Amanda: Sure. Hi. Thanks for having me. My name is Amanda Stanley and I live in Bedford, VA and I currently operate my own business. It's called the Artisan Leader and the Artisan Leader was born about a year and a half ago after I, with the, best word is probably, uh, completed about a 10-year experience as a CEO to a nonprofit in Virginia that served children who are either in or at risk of the foster care system, and individuals who had intellectual and developmental disabilities. So yeah, I'm currently self-employed consultant, executive coach and I work primarily in the area of workplace culture and leadership development.
Hilary: I feel like we could have a podcast based on your job description. You know, but really, that's good
Nicole: That is so cool.
Hilary: So, I'm hearing all of these marvelous things you've done and continued to do as part of your career. How does doodling come into play with that?
Amanda: OK, so part of my core belief about leadership that's been formed over like practicing it and also experiencing other people practicing it is that it requires presence and it requires creativity. In my work, personally, and in my work as an executive coach with other people trying to practice leadership, All the time, I have learned we don't take a lot of time to practice either one of those things. And I was. So the idea of what I called the doodling collective was actually born on another podcast. I was doing an interview with a woman in Northern Virginia about my transition from CEO to self-employed. And we were riffing on this idea of how beneficial like journaling and doodling has been for both of us in our careers. And we decided, why don't we kind of like try to do it with other people virtually and we as a complete experiment not expecting anyone to show up, had an online session open to whoever we invited people in our network. We asked them to submit a song for the playlist and we sat there and we listened to music for an hour and we doodled and at the end, everybody, I mean, there's 25 people on this call which was shocking. All adults right with like big jobs, you know, they held up their papers with their doodles. They were grinning from ear to ear. And we asked everyone, how did they feel? We did kind of a feeling question front end back end. And people were feeling relaxed, relieved. Just good and it was really lovely and. I thought, oh, I'm going to. I'm going to keep doing this. So I started offering these doodling sessions online from time to time and just inviting people to come and it's become. And now I you know, I do them at conferences. I integrate doodling into workshops and retreats that I do with people. 2D doodling and 3D doodling. So we'll play with play dough or Lego blocks. That's how the idea got started and I integrated or connected with leadership because leadership requires that we practice being present and being creative and doodling is a way to do that, without the pressure of being good, right? We you throw your doodle in the garbage like nobody's putting this in a museum. It doesn't have to be good. So, you get that great benefit. And it's this thing you can access any time. But you don't need like bubble bath or you just need a pencil, right and a piece of paper so.
Nicole: That's awesome. I know at the Family Place we talk about energy a lot. We do energy check-ins at the beginning of each meeting and you know, we go low, medium, high. Does it feel comfortable or uncomfortable in your body and then if you know we're feeling uncomfortable, we can find ways to modulate so it sounds like it's a great way to modulate. I know I like. I'm not really into doodling, but maybe I just haven't done it right.
Hilary: Yeah, well, I guess. That's a good question, Amanda is there. I mean, I think that's probably one of the benefits of doodling. Is that there is no right or wrong way to do it
Amanda: Yes, I also wrote that down energy check. In I love that. I was hosting A doodling workshop at a conference and there were like 200 nonprofit folks there and I the first prompt is like 5 minutes. We're gonna listen to music. I'm not giving you anything to doodle. About just let your hand go on the paper with your pencil. And two, are we always debrief. So, at the end of that we just super quick debrief and one of the women said I just immediately got into judgment zone. Like, what are you doing? Why are you drawing that? That's not very good. Oh, that's ugly scratch it out. And even just her noticing, gosh, every time I go to make something or do something, the inner critic just immediately shows up like this. Like she was an invited guest, right? So the only there is no good at it or bad at it. It's like doing anything where the point is to just be in it and see what happens. And it's incredibly uncomfortable for some people. I led a workshop with a group of CEO's. All but one of whom were men, and one of one of the participants said. Just I was so uncomfortable. And I think I had them go for like 30 minutes with a prompt and he just said I was just so uncomfortable for like the 1st 10 minutes. And then and then I got into. It and it was OK. But I think especially people and roles are leading people and that could be a social worker, that could be manager. It doesn't have to be an authoritative title, but we think we're in this job because we're good at a thing and we have to be good at the thing all the time, and so to spend an hour doing something that you haven't been designated as good at, can be can be really difficult.
Nicole: Yeah, I know. That's exactly how I feel like I just have never been good at drawing so the inner critic is always invited so. Like the, go ahead. Hilary,
Hilary: But you bring up good point when you say like, I think it's important, especially as leaders as supervisors, as those that are overseeing other people. It's good to get out of our comfort zone like it's powerful for us to do things that are uncomfortable to us. And so, I like that. I think that's important to put ourselves in that type of position now and again to remind ourselves of that.
Amanda: Yeah, super low risk, right? It's not like I'm putting myself in an uncomfortable position in a room full of 40 people that are judging me. It’s that I'm just kind of drawing a picture. It might be a little loopy loop. That might be a house. But it's incredibly low risk discomfort.
Nicole: Right. I keep thinking when you're talking this about Brené Brown when she talks about. I can't remember where she talks about this, but she says I have to give myself permission to play because as adults we don't play, we don't give ourselves permission to be creative, to be fun. To do those kind of things and you know we do for kids. But then we think it’s too childish for us. So, do you have any thoughts about that?
Amanda: Yeah, we're not very well practiced at just having fun, I think most of my friends who have hobbies, usually those hobbies, are even about achievement in some way. Like you know, I run, but I really want to get faster. Or I knit. But I really want to be able to knit this big thing and sell it. It's like even the stuff we've chosen to do for fun, there's some like end goal in mind, right? I'm baking, but everybody better eat it and love it, right? And so, yeah, I think we're just not well practiced at it. And it's fun working with kiddos, right? Because you see them just play for the purpose of playing. They're not trying to get an insight. They're not trying to win anything. They're just, well, I don't know, an American culture now. We're sort of pushing that down. There's like 5th graders, they're trying to win stuff. But yeah, just. Do it to have a good time. I did play though with the group the other day a to complete an experiment. It's a group I've worked with before, so they trusted me a bit. And they were just giddy. It's giddy, you know, and then they smashed it back up and put it in the container. It was over and it's really fun to watch, you know, and nobody had to you know. It's funny, watching people's faces at a conference I said to them you don't have to leave this session a better person. And you will not leave the session with a task list. And everybody just started clapping. Yeah, for an hour. You can just listen to music and smile and make something just for fun. And it was so absurd. They just exhaled and laughed hysterically. Like ohh gosh.
Hilary: Because I'm thinking of myself when I attend, I when I attend conferences, I've got this list of like, OK, when I get back to the office, here are the following things that I need to accomplish or begin to implement, or the things that I'm not currently doing that I need to beat myself up about when I get home. And so I love that or.
Amanda: Right. And when I was a CEO at a nonprofit, resources are limited. So, if we send you to this conference, we want you to come back, show us that it was worth it and present back to everybody all the fabulous things you learned. So, I don't only have to be a better person, but I also have to share all the ways I'm a better person when I come back with all these people because we only had $4.00 and we spent three of it on the conference, right. Now, I take great pride in being like the one workshop at all conferences I go to where nobody has to feel that pressure, which is really ironic because I am the queen of pressure and perfectionism and I better I better squeeze all the juice out of this thing that I can right. So, it's a funny twist on my life and my own nervous yeah.
Nicole: I'm so interested by this like there's just there's so much that I didn't even think about and you know. What are, OK, I'm wondering like what are some of the prompts that you give people? You mentioned that you do that
Amanda: One of the prompts I've given is; Think about a time you were really well rested. That's it. I've asked people to doodle about. The last time they had fun. The last time they felt powerful. So, I try to tap into some emotional space or physical space. One time I did something on transitions. I've got a doodling session coming up on December 15th and I've actually just on social media asked people like, what is this time of year like for you and as people are writing, it's giving me ideas for prompts. So, some people are saying festive, other people are saying bittersweet, others are saying complicated, other people are saying heavy so yeah. It it'll probably two days before I do the session, I'll think of a question and it usually is a question and not a command. There is always choice in it, right. I'm a coach and the fundamental belief in coaching is that we are always in choice, so there's always like you know, you can choose to follow this prompt or you can do really whatever the heck you want. I'm not like the doodling police. And it's funny because people will be like, I wrote words. I wasn't sure I was supposed to write words. Is that ok?
Nicole: Yeah, it’s like, do what you want
Amanda: Your choice, yeah.
Nicole: That's cool.
Hilary: So I can see. So I want to dive a little bit more into because you mentioned, I mean clearly this is a relaxing you know like I, that's one of the benefits is just you can relax and like you said you can modulate, we can regulate our emotions. So tell us, what are the other benefits Of practicing doodling on a consistent basis?
Amanda: When this started quote working right, so the things I noticed about it were people were leaving these sessions more relaxed and happier. The other thing I noticed was probably half of the people in these sessions at the end of them would say they had this pretty significant insight, right? So, one woman and I know she's comfortable with me sharing because she allowed me to share it in a newsletter. And her name is Tess. She came to an online doodling and never met her before. I don't even remember what the prompt was, but she started drawing. She drew a person that was her, and then she started drawing these pathways. And what occurred to her as she was drawing was that the pathway she drew looked kind of like an internal structure, like arteries or ribs or something. And then the insight that came to her was the possibilities that she has thought of as being out there are actually in here. Which was like a chill bump, generating insight for every person that was in that doodle session. When I'm faced with choices like what's inside me is as much of a guide. As what's outside? She's doodling, so we started noticing. These benefits, and so of course I go and just kind of try to find research about doodling and the good news is people research, doodling and so there's some cognitive benefits around memory recall people. Who doodle are better able kind of cognitively to do tasks or to remember things. People have a higher propensity to problem solve or create something after they've spent some time doodling. There's physical benefits to spiritual benefits around just presence, and having a greater capacity to pay attention and mood. Like your mood shifts, right and part of. The science of it the best I can explain it is it's like. One of the authors I read compared it to showering. It's like your brain is. On the hook enough. That it's engaged, but it's not so on the hook that it has to do something. It's like that's not between like Netflix, where I'm totally checked out and my brain doesn't do anything and over functioning. It's this place in the middle where your brain is engaged but not forces flow, right? So anytime we're in that, the gate is open, and sometimes these insights come through and it's really. I don't know. So it we're like I would say all of us can be affected by it, right our mind our body, our spirit, our feelings. There's impact in those places when we do this really simple thing. That we probably used to do a lot when we were like 5.
Nicole: Yeah, I'm just thinking about, you know. Kids, and I think you know when you're coloring or doing something with your hands. They're talking like they're talking to you more when they're engaged in something else. And I like what you said about, like, the memory recall and like, we're able to focus on something else. So that our. We can you know, remember other things and. And I love the prompts too, like those. I'm thinking about some of those. I'm like how makes me feel emotional.
Amanda: Yeah. Well, and I tend to be a little bit heavy hearted. So, I'll ask like these big questions. And sometimes it's like, Oh my gosh, just ask something happy for once. You know. Get into that space. So I'll like say one of one of the things was just like generosity. Right, like think about a time somebody's been generous to you and you know that could. Hopefully, I think it did bring up some pretty happy happy stuff, but. Yeah, my therapist. So, I can. I've been in. I have, like, a very impressive therapy resume for myself. I've been in therapy for 8000 years and. I had one a physician actually say to me, I think you would really benefit from therapy that was. Not talk therapy because you're so. He said strong minded and then he said stubborn meaning like you're so in your head intellectually all the time that you can trick yourself into thinking you've solved the problem when you haven't, and I found a woman who did art therapy and it was so fantastic because we didn't do that much talking. But we tapped into stuff that was kind of like this weird level. I probably couldn't have accessed through chitchat, and that was really fascinated by that whole thing. And this is I do not do art therapy. I don't do therapy, but there is something to that. You know, doodling is a physical process. It's not just a cognitive one, right? So, there's something cool to that that's mysterious to me. A little bit, but.
Hilary: I mean it's in the same realm of, you know, play therapy and sand therapy and some of these things that clinicians often use, right?
Nicole: I was just thinking like I've been in talk therapy for four years and we did one of our therapists came to a meeting that we had here and we did sand tray therapy. And I had the biggest breakthrough that I have ever had. In like 30 minutes. I mean sand tray then for years with talk therapy like there's something to being able to like, feel things in your hand and move your hands and just unlock. Things in your brain, I.
AmandaL Guess well, and as you're talking, I'm thinking especially like as professionals in a field with so many boundaries we're constantly respecting. I think we have so many automatic filters built into our speech to be appropriate and to say the right thing and to say something that's true and to see something that's kind and all the stuff we make ourselves do professionally, which is a OK. But I think then we get into a chair where we're supposed to be vulnerable and. It's really hard to tell those filters. To shut off and it's, I think when we're not using language or we're using it. Your bodies in a different way that we don't.have the same expressive filters, I don't think. So, it's like I feel. Like our psyches are probably like thank God for letting me out for real.
Hilary: So here's what I'm imagining. OK. I'm imagining we have a listener that's like, all right, I'm going to try this today. And so they sit down at the table. They've got their pen and paper in hand and. Then they're like. Now and I now we're like how? How do I? Begin this process of implementing this technique in my life.
Amanda: Number one, put, put yourself in a place without distraction. Right, the space you're in matters a lot so. Don't let anybody bother you. Pretend it is a shower, right? Your phone doesn't go. Oh God, I hope our phones. Don't go in the shower with us other people you know, just shut the door and create quiet space. I think setting a timer is really good because it can be really uncomfortable. It's like doing a plank and you think you've been doing it for an hour and it's been like it's been 10 seconds and you're so for some people that can be really helpful so you're not. Constantly wondering if it’s time. To leave yet just. Yeah, have paper. Have pencil I've thought about actually doing a. Little Self-published book. With just like prompts and blank paper for people if they need entry point. Ask yourself a question or even just doodle what's right in front of you. I mean, I had one session where you Draw Something that's in front of you, like draw, the doorway draw the lamp. Just don't have to think about anything deep. Just do something you know another way to get into it is just draw shapes more for 5 minutes. Don't pick up your pencil. Just let it go so there are kind of simple ways to just get into it. And yeah, I would set a timer for 5 minutes to start and I think listening to music really, really helps people get into their bodies and have fun and kind of move. So turn on music that you love to listen to.
Hilary: I can see once I'm done with that 5 minutes, you know the timer goes off and I look at my paper and then I say to myself no, I'm supposed to evaluate this like. What is this supposed to mean? I mean.
Amanda: Find your purpose and have them diagnose you immediately. Yeah, just kidding.
Hilary: Yeah, because I can see a lot of people looking at that paper and being like, OK, this should tell me what's wrong. With me right or. You know, like and so I think there's probably times where you have an aha moment and then there's other times where it’s a just a doodle and I think I mean both sides are ok.
Amanda: Yeah. And I usually actually shouldn't have said that. I usually never say to people at the beginning of a session that sometimes people have big insights because at the end, then if you didn't, you can feel like immediate well I didn't do it right, so we always we do debriefs. After the five-minute doodle we do debriefs at the end and the only rule I have for that is, you don't get to say anything. Buddy, you don't get to say it's good. You don't to say it's bad. Treat it like you treat you know as parents, you learn when your kids play sports or when they draw a picture. You just go. I enjoyed watching you or look what you made. So you observe it. You think about like ohh there's. A lot of red on it. Oh, I did a lot of like loopty loops. Or there's some like animal looking. Things on here you. Just make observations, right? That's what presence is. You observe you don't judge, you don't intervene. You just see what you see, right? And so again, just practice at. OK, you see it and then you do. What you want to do with it. But it's not a diagnostic tool, right? It's just a look at it like you would look at a coffee pot like ohh. No, it's that place and it's that color and. OK, great. Moving on.
Nicole: Have you heard any? Like I'm wondering about like success stories. Like, what is feedback that you get from these?
Amanda: Some people never come back, so that feels like feedback. And not necessarily, not necessarily feedback about me, I try not to take it that way. But feedback that it was uncomfortable or I didn't really love that experience. I was grateful one conference coordinator sent me the comments from my session and most of the comments were; “oh my God, that just felt good”, “felt grounding”, “it felt like a release”, “it felt relaxed”. I felt, relieved that I didn't have to do anything. So most of the feedback has been about how people leave the room feeling. And it really is great because it's really not about me in the least. I do very little talking in these, right. It's like say what we're doing, I turn on the music. And I sit down and stress about the experience people are having. I think like the funny thing is, I'm not actually super relaxed. But the doodling, you know, that does the work. And I really believe everybody's experience is their own responsibility generally. So if they are open to it and engaged, then that they're going to have a great experience and. So usually the feedback is pretty good. Sometimes people stay after and chat sometimes. It's just neutral. Like, OK, I did that. I might not do it again and you know, whatever. I don't know if that answers your question, but
Hilary: And I think it's like a lot of stress for leaving and mindfulness exercises that there is not a one-size-fits-all for everyone. For some people, doodling may be their thing. For others it might be meditation. For some it might be yoga. For some it might be deep breathing. I know for myself I do not enjoy yoga and there's so much research and so many benefits to yoga, but I'm like, that's not my thing. That's not my cup of tea. So I think, like you are this, you are a facilitator that's giving individuals another tool like this could work really well. For you, if it's not your thing. That's OK. There are other things out there.
Amanda: Right. So, the question is how then can I access or practice present. How can I practice non judgment? How can I practice creativity. How can I choose to give myself 30 minutes a week to do that and explore like what is what are some things that help me do that and it it's a question about kind of active rest versus passive rest right? Taking a bath or breathing and a candle might. Not help you do. Those things so it's like what? And I hope that I hope that if somebody responds to doodling like that isn't my thing, I hope their next question is, what is a thing that will help me correct present and nonjudgement presence, nonjudgement and creativity. And let me go discover what that is because it's worth dealing for me and for the people I serve. Right? Because when I show up, present and non judgy and creative. I'm going to show up way better, right?
Hilary: So, I imagine that this is a technique that you can use regardless of age, but I mean, how young is too young? What am I? What are you thinking?
Amanda: I don't know. I mean, some people don't want to give babies paint just because it's a way to clean up but. I don't just what's your tolerance for mess? Right? That's how you should go
Hilary: So, we're looking. I mean you get a cute little toddler with those chunky fingers. You can give them a crown and they can doodle, right? I mean, so there's benefits to even young, young children.
Amanda: It's also, it feels a little innate. You give a kid anything and they like immediately start trying to make something with it? Yeah, there's not a lot of like. OK, they like immediately, you know you give them paper and they start to rip. It or they fold it. Right. You give them a marker, they immediately the there's the wall over. I mean, I used to write on the wall all the time as a kid. I had chalk and I would. I made my closets into a chalkboard and I would just. And there's something like later on, I don't know what it is? Where we keep it on the page and we're very neat about it and also, like your handwriting has to be neat, the picture has to look like something very representative about it. So yeah, I don't think there's any too young. I think it's like how much mess can you tolerate? And it's some like erasable.
Hilary: Yeah, just have that Mr. Clean Magic eraser handy if needs be. And so you know, kind of set up this scenario of finding kind of that safe space, quiet distraction set. But, but I'm imagining with kids, are there times where? I mean, like, you see kids that are doodling in the classroom, and that's a great way for some kids to stay focused and so, can it be done in a setting where there are a lot of other you. Know things happening around as well too.
Amanda: Yeah, my brother used to get in trouble, but we went to church as kids and. You know they have like the children's version of the Bulletin and. The whole service, he is just. Yeah, going all over. And my mom would you know, and I'm sitting there very Princess, like listening to every word. Their parents was Mandy. It's my mom calls me. Mandy is listening and is understanding. And Chad, my brother is in la la land. Right? But after the service, he would talk about. He heard and it was like. Hey, like he was there, even though it looked like he wasn't there. I've also had coaching clients that I've used. This with I've texted me from meetings. Pictures of their doodles, they're like I'm doodling while I'm in this meeting and it's helping me stay in the meeting, right? So, I think for some people, it can be a like a yes and. I can be doodling and be present in this thing that's happening and it'll actually help me stay in. The room, the idea of freeing yourself from distractions is more like if the practice is the thing you're working on. Then give yourself the very best chance to really practice. Yeah, right.
Nicole: OK. Yeah, that's something it's. I was just thinking it's like it's really interesting in school how you know taking notes is praise worthy but doodling is, you know, something? Maybe something that you're told to put away, or it's just silly, but it is a way to, you know, be there. And I know at the Family Place we use a lot of modulation and nobody bats an eye if you're just sitting there coloring during a meeting and like. It's just, it's just. It's grounding and helps you to stay so.
Amanda: So that triggers. A little memory when I was a CEO. I told the management team when I it might have been my second meeting with them right? They had just met me, I was definitely like I was onesie like this is the first time I've had a job this big. Everybody knew I was inexperienced and. I said I just went ahead and said, look, when we're in a meeting and I see you taking notes, it helps me think that you're getting. It and I gave everybody like a commemorative notepad. Like this is just for you. That is really affirming to me that you're getting it and. This this CFO. He didn't really do words, you know. And every time we met, even if it was just a one-on-one, I would look at his paper and. He would have just been like scribbling a box like signal. I'm hearing you, but like I'm writing nothing down that you're saying it was really. It was just really cool like. I had thought of it very narrowly, right, like if people aren't writing down what's being said in the meeting or they're not writing down tasks they need to do then, they're not really paying attention but for him it was like. Just as a box or a couple lines and he was totally in and remembered what he had to do. When he left the meeting and I could trust that right? It's very different from what I walked away with. The days before I discovered doodling. Where I you know. Every meeting was 5000 words of notes and 12 tasks that I had to do when I left and I didn't trust myself I didn't trust myself to learn oh remember, if I didn't do that.
Hilary: Yeah. We are the same person, Amanda, because I am like that describes me to a tea and I think that is traditionally the way that we used to think is like in order for students to be engaged, their desks need to be cleared off or if there was something they were meticulously taking notes. Right and I love that we are taking that shift not only with education, but in general in our society that people learn different ways and for some I can stay engaged just by visually watching. You, but for the others I have to have something in my hands. And if I don't have something in my hands, then I disengage and so. I do. I love that you say that, Nicole, but it is becoming more common knowledge that as teachers. Were OK giving a child you know something to fidget with because we know that that's beneficial to that particular child, right?
Nicole: For sure. I'm glad that they're doing a lot more research on it, I wish. That I could be growing up with my children's teachers and learning environment.
Hilary: So, is there a benefit, Amanda to keeping your doodles? Will it tell a story eventually, like with plants? Do you suggest that you kind of keep them in a notebook or once I doodle, do I throw it away, let it go?
Amanda: Oh, Cool. I love that question. So I like what do you want to practice, right? I think that's the question if. And it feels a little. Like journaling, right? So every morning I try to write 3 pages, handwritten, and the point is just to clear it out. Well, I keep my journals, but I have rarely gone back because. It wasn't about what I said it was about getting it out. I think you know sketchbooks can. Be really great if you want to reference it because it's also kind of fun, it's like the idea of building a monument like you're just building a monument. You have evidence that you have practiced presence. You have evidence that you've made something and that can be really reassuring and affirming. If the thing you might need to practice more is releasing or non-judgment or not tracking? Every little thing you do then a really great practice might be throwing it in the trash. Getting rid of it because. You made it for the audience that is you, yeah. And yeah, I mean that's a really interesting question. I think the answer depends on like what is the thing you need to practice or you want to practice. What will help you do that? And you do that, I mean, some people might turn it into an art collection and really put it up one day I had the nonprofit I did work with in Ontario that I was telling you about they were. Actually, contemplating putting. The staff doodles up. On the wall. As a reminder to them and the children, they worked with that, it's. OK, to make something that was great, that's a little. We look at it, we go. I don't know what. That is right. So do with it whatever helps you. Practice the thing that you might need to practice.
Hilary: I'm just thinking of my so my daughter, she is so I have a cute little daughter that is 10 and she struggles with a little bit of OCD tendencies and she's very much a perfectionist and has meticulous handwriting and is often praised for how beautiful her handwriting is to the point where it it's become detrimental because these the instructors are feeding these words into her and she's like, well, I got to be perfect. I got to make sure that this is just the way it needs to be. It just kind of feeds into the OCD and so she has a really hard time with it not being ideal. And one thing that her teacher suggested is that like we designate times where this is your best work, and you can take your time and you can really focus in. But then there are other times where we want you to perform a sloppy copy. We're not looking for perfection. And when we're done with that sloppy copy, we toss it, right, because it was just practice. And I think that that's powerful to be able to say there are times where you know what? I'm going to sit down. I'm really going to focus, I'm going to, I'm going to keep this because I want to use this. It might go on the wall, but other times where I'm like this is just get it out and then I'm going to toss it and. It doesn't need to look perfect because I'm not going to see it after this and so I see that in her where. I think that. There are like she needs both sides of that. She needs to know that there are times where this may be displayed, but there are times where you know what, no one is ever going to see it this and this is going to be tossed and it is OK if it is not your best work, we actually prefer it not be, just go, go crazy. Go free and so I really like that.
Amanda: It's interesting because like so I mean, I studied art, but I'm in no way an artist so it's easy for me to create a doodle that's crappy. Right, because I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to make something good, I have 0 goals around anything I draw, I think that. As you're talking, it's like there's this harder rock to get over. Maybe if it's something we are good at, it may be a thing that's harder to be bad at, to be a beginner. So, if I'm good at public speaking and somebody wants me to just write a in and Lamont's word, I don't know if I can cuss on here but ask. First draft. That's harder for me because I have been told I am proficient at this writing and speaking. So, it's like sometimes maybe and that's really helpful. Like if I'm a CEO, I want people to feel free around this problem to create 10 ideas that might not work instead of the pressure to create the one that will. So how do I give people space to practice that sloppy copy? Something they've not been expected to be proficient at, so maybe we can carry that forward into something you are expected to be proficient at because we paid to do it right. It's really hard. I I can appreciate the difficulty that your daughter has in that, because when you've been told you're. Good at something. It seems like the space closes up for you. To not be to spend time and it not be quote. But it's really interesting.
Nicole: It's making me think of the Lego movie. I don't know if you guys. Have seen that, but movie.
Amanda: Everything is awesome.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah. We're like the dad is. He wants everything to be built. Well, exactly right. And he wants to super glue all the pieces into the city and everything has to be just like the box. And anyway, and then at the end there, he has to build. I don't remember what they call it, but it's like a double Decker couch, and it's just the weirdest thing. And this is what's going to save them. And it's like it's just straight out of this boys mind and that's what saves them is his creativity. And I just like that's. It's not something that we value enough in our society, so.
Amanda: No, it's. Yeah, it's like. So, I have been writing a little bit of something I hope becomes a book, but one of the things I wrote about was just watching my kids play with Lego blocks and see there's three. It's a couple of ways to play with them, right? There's I do what the book tells me to do, and that's like solving a technical problem in leadership, right. For a lot of what we do, there's a way that works to do it and being a good manager means you do it the way that you know works. Not everything has to be this, like, innovative situation because it's fairly inefficient. When you have 40 hours in a week. If everything's like, let's create it ourselves. And then there's times when. You know he puts the book away and he just has blacks and he just thinks it and he makes it. And there are times when that is absolutely that, you know, we call those adaptive problems right or adaptive situations and there are absolutely times when that. The thing and the skill or the practices, what is this moment call for? Does it call for anything that has the manual or does it call for the thing that might have a manual, but it might be better if we if we make the double Decker weirdly couch because the double Decker weirdy couch might be the thing that saves the day. That it's that discernment of. Right. What is the moment call for Heart surgeons should follow the manual.
Hilary: We would hope so.
Amanda: And a heart surgeon who's talking with the patient about why they're having trouble caring for their heart might need to throw the manual away and create something with that patient that works. For her them. It's the discernment.
Hilary: Yeah, that's really powerful. OK.
Amanda: I can take you. Somewhere really cool, right? Just take the legos.
Hilary: Yeah, the answer to all things in life. According to my children, is play with Legos. Trust me.
Amanda: Until you step on them and the night.
Nicole: Break your entire foot.
Hilary: So too, we're running short on time, Amanda. But I just wanted to ask as we kind of wrap up for today, any major takeaways that you would want our audience to hear?
Amanda: You guys are great question askers because I had like 20 insights as we were talking. One of them was, find a way to practice presence and non-judgment and creativity. Find the way that you can do it, because not just leadership, but like every relationship you're in, everything you do will benefit. From you being able to be where you really are. From you being able to create something and from you being able to suspend judgment. So, if it's bike riding if it's doodling, if it's Play Dogh or whatever, if it's. You know, playing an instrument. And then practice it really, practice it. I think that's the take away. And for crying out loud. Like, please let it be fun. Because if it's fun, you're going to want to do it, you know, fun and accessible and cheap. You know, those are all great qualities. For an activity. to help bring you back. Yeah, I think that that's a take away for me. Yeah.
Nicole: Do you, Do you have any resources that you'd like us to know though?
Amanda: I hate this. This is also like motivation to do something to my website, so I have put a resource together that outlines the benefits of doodling, and cite some research I need to like post a link to that on my site or put it on my site. I'm going to do that within days, I promise. So that's a resource I can offer also just my online doodling sessions are free. There's no cost to them. There's no age limits around them, so I post those. They're probably every two months-ish, so people can. Come visit me on my website and sign up to get event announcements and I'll let people know when those are. There's one coming up and so that can be a resource. Too just to like visit one of those and check it out.
Hilary: And with with those workshops, Amanda are those I'm assuming those are primarily with adults. Do you ever have like teens involved in those workshops, even older kids?
Amanda: They have been primarily adults, but it. Would be really fun to play with having. And of like a age group boundary on that, that really, really fun and how, like, have my kids help me figure out how. To do it. And tell me all the things I'm not. Doing well, yeah.
Hilary: They're good at saying that it might be.
Amanda: It might be fun to do that with a specific organization who has some kiddos that they know and can wrangle or working with the school or something I'm not sure. So now you've got my mind thinking. But yeah, it's generally my audience and my mailing list is generally, you know, over stressed working people. Those are my people, so they're generally the people that show up for these, but it would be fun to design one for kids.
Nicole: Yeah. And we'll share your website in the. In the show notes, I assume so yes.
Hilary: Yes, we will include your contact information, your website and also we'll make sure that that link with the information on the benefits is on there as well too, because I'm sure that our audience will want that. So we appreciate all of that. And appreciate you being here. This has been a fantastic conversation. And it's just got my little brain chuggin as to how I need to incorporate this in my life and in my children's lives, because I can see the true power and benefit of being able to do it on a. Regular basis and gosh I'm thinking. That sounds a lot more fun than my list of to do that I have, you know, to accomplish today. Take advantage of those opportunities to, just like you said, play and relax. I think that's so powerful. Well, thank you for being here. And thank you to our listeners as well as always, thank you for tuning in for being part of our group. We appreciate all that you do and we hope to see you next week. But our next episode. Have a good week and be kind to one another.
Jen: Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to. Reach us. You can at parents at thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly – The Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is thefamilyplaceutah.org if you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes, we'd love to see you there.
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