Art comes in many different forms from dance to painting. But what is the importance of art connection especially when it comes to education? Steffanie Casperson is here with us this week to talk about this. With her previous work as a professional ballerina, and now a homeschooling mom and ballet director, she has such great insight into how important art is in a child's life! Jen, Hilary, and Steffanie give ideas of things you can do with your kids for free and at home to connect with art. They also discuss the benefits of art they have seen in their own lives and the lives of their children. Come listen, learn something new, and be inspired to take your kids to the ballet, or have a gallery stroll of their artwork in the front room!
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Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen. Hilary: All right. Welcome to the podcast, everyone. We're excited to have you guys here listening with us once again. We have a special guest with us today that I am excited to introduce. Her name is Stephanie Casperson and this topic, Jen and I were just talking beforehand, is a topic we have yet to cover in our podcast. And I think this is going to be really fun for your listeners to hear about and receive this information. So, I'm just going to turn the time over to Stephanie. She's going to tell a little bit about herself, a little bit about her background and training and why she's here. So go ahead. Stephanie: Thanks. Thanks so much. I'm excited to be here. I'm passionate about the subject of arts and education and how parents can benefit their kids through increased art engagement. My background, the easiest way to describe it is that I was a professional dancer trained by professional dancers. And really cool thing about my background or the humbling thing is that the people that train me are the people who have books in the library about them and about their biographies, which is really fun. I was at a local ballet performance and there was a group of, there was a couple of moms with some girls and I just heard them over, you know, overheard them talking about Maria Tallchief. Is that a name that either of you know? So Maria Tallchief was a Native American prima ballerina, and she was influential, famous. They're talking about reading these books about her at this ballet performance. And I just started smiling. I thought, ‘Should I say something?’ I did end up going and saying, would you like to ask me any questions about Maria Tallchief? I, I trained with her. And so that kind of background is unique and special. I'm very blessed. In my performance career, so I performed with Ballet West for four years, and during that time I became really passionate about arts and education. Ballet West has a program called Ballet West for children, and they send, at that time they send company members, they send their professional dancers out to the school systems. Do you have kids in the school systems, if they've ever come home and said that they've had ballet presentations? Now the program is expanded and it's actually their advanced students that go into the schools. In my day it was the professional dancers, and we went into the school, and I loved doing it. We would be in rural Utah. In schools that had like 20 kids, like for the entire student body, not per class. It was tiny. And we would start talking to them about dance, and then we do this little mini performance, and their eyes would light up. And it was like the most famous or the most favorite thing you know that they would experience in their whole school year. And I thought, this is the best. I love this. I love sharing this. So, I retired when I was 20 weeks pregnant with my oldest child. And even after he was born, I continued to do this. Instead of being the dancer, I was the narrator and I actually took him with me on some of those tours and he just kind of wait in the back with this baby sitter and we’d talk about ballet to the school kids. But yeah, so I after I finished my performance career, I became a mom. I have four kids and kind of continue that education journey as a homeschool parent. So we decided when my oldest was three or four to homeschool, he was such a mama's boy and I was like, I'm going to crush his little world, you know, to be for a couple hours with some other adult. And so and I thought, Oh, we'll just do this for a little while. Obviously, he'll grow out of it and we'll move on to something else when this stops working. And it's been all this time.
My youngest is now 10, and we still homeschool. So as we got into the homeschooling community, I started to present to the home schoolers about how to incorporate art in their kids' experience and speaking personally as a homeschooling mother like hauling out the art supplies is not like the thing that I think that I want to do. Some mothers are so great at that, right? In making that space for creation and I'm not one of those mothers. So I have other ways and I wanted to inform other parents, ‘Hey, you know, if you feel like me and this isn't your, you know, your absolute thing that you're most excited about fitting into your day, here are some other things that you can do. And here's why doing these things are important.’ So, and then my oldest son decided when he was nine that he wanted to be in a dance class. At 10, he decided that he wanted to try and be a professional dancer. And at that point, I thought, I need to kind of help him with that, kind of take over his training, and that kind of started me on this teaching, coaching journey. Since that time, I've helped four kids kind of launch into the final phases of professional ballet training. And in January, I opened my own school called Ballet Aligned so that I can be the professional, the former professional dancer that helps aspiring professional dancers. Yeah. And Ballet Aligned, part of Ballet Aligned's mission is still that educational component. So, we do, every year, we do free classes so that people can just go and try ballet. We do free seminars where I bring in industry professionals. So this past May, we had this world renowned choreographer speak to my dancers for 30 minutes about what it was like to make money choreographing. Yeah, I met someone from The Family Place at the gardeners market being a ballet missionary, which is how I came to be here and then and we do free story time. So that educational component is still a really big part of the mission of Ballet Aligned and something that I'm still incredibly passionate about. Hilary: Yes. You sound like a busy momma, and you've got a lot of things. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, it helps that the kids are 10. That’s why I’m here now instead of 10 years ago. Hilary: Oh, I love the fact that you were, I mean, I love this overlap between education and arts. I think that that is amazing, because I think for most people, they tend to categorize it into two separate categories. Yeah, I see that overlap. And now that you mention that, I remember seeing advertisements for ballerinas doing story time and things like that, and I think that is wonderful. Stephanie: It's so magical and it's cool for the kids there, but for the dancers to make that close connection. I performed with Pacific Northwest Ballet up in Seattle and in that timeframe that I was there, we had like 40 productions of The Nutcracker . If you can imagine, that can be quite a slog. And one of the ways that I keep it fresh was that go out before the show, like before I had all my makeup and my costume on, and I just kind of be where families were entering and you'd see these kids all dressed to the nines and you'd see the excitement in their faces. And I would think that's who I'm doing this for, I’m here to create this magical experience, and so I love creating that for my dancers that through these story times, they can have these precious moments with little people. One month, the mom of one of my dancers said another mom of one of the attendees came up and said, Mom, do you think Cinderella will hold my hand? And when they did a photo op my dancer reached down to hold the hand of this little girl? And it made her day. Oh yes. That's just, you know, you can't buy that. It was just so precious. Hilary: And you're right for both individuals, for that little girl, but also for that dancer probably made her day as well, too. Yes. Oh, my goodness. So cute. I have two little dancers at my house, and so I'm just eating this up. Oh, I love it. So let's talk about the benefits that you see both from art and as well as from dance, you know, with that combination. What are the benefits for children and adults, I guess, to be involved? Stephanie: Yeah. Well, you mentioned that we don't often think of like art connecting to education. So, we homeschool. My kids haven't been to school generally. I actually have a daughter now that does a couple of classes at the high school level. But my kids got invited to like try a day at school thing. And I went to second grade class and we were there for a while. This lovely, lovely second grade teacher who's so capable in every way. We weren't there for a day where we got to experience art, so I asked her, how much time do the kids get to spend in art? And she said they get 20 minutes a week. So, this concept that they're separate ideas is not related. That's not you concept. Generally speaking, which is unfortunate because how beneficial art in education is. So, let's go over some of those benefits. One of the categories of benefits that I think of is the mindset benefit. So, art enables a growth mindset versus an instant gratification or mastery mindset. So, I mentioned, you know, my older dancers interacting with these younger kids. I did a training seminar. One of my dancers was there learning how to be a teacher. And we were having this conversation about she was actually asking me about being a missionary. So, I served a mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And she, this dancer, has been in the Chinese immersion program , and she was like , How was it to be a missionary after only learning Chinese, this thing that she's learned her whole life, you learned it for two months. How did you handle being a missionary? And I was like, ‘You know, it was hard, but I was a dancer.’ And I just knew for myself that there was a process, you know? So, I was already familiar with the process of being really discouraged and feeling inadequate and how that could drive extra work. And then you get a little bit better and then you start to plateau and then you get discouraged. And I had experienced that enough in my life through my study of art, through my dance experience that I was so comfortable just being like, ‘Yeah, my Chinese isn't very good, and it's OK because I'm going to be frustrated and that will make me work harder and that will make it better. So, I love and I think that's true of music and visual art. In addition, so there's that growth mindset, but you also recognize that your mistakes aren't like wrong answers. You know, you're not docked for mistakes in art. They become the tools by which you can create something more beautiful. And my favorite story from this, probably because it's one of my favorite ballets. So, this there's this ballet called Serenade and set to Tchaikovsky's Serenade for strings. Beautiful piece of music (go listen parents!). Anyway, so this famous choreographer George Balanchine in setting this ballet and one of the things about the ballet is the dancers start in this pose where it kind of looks like they're shielding their eyes from the light. And that pose came about because they were actually rehearsing outdoors and it was really bright, and the dancers are actually shielding their eyes from the Sun. And he found beauty in that. So, he uses it. And then through the rehearsal process, you know, they're all beginning, they're in their poses, they're shielding themselves from the light, and one of the girls, one of the dancers, was late and she rushes in and she puts her stuff down and she finds her spot and then she takes her pose. And he found such beauty in that moment. That mistake moment that came probably with the dancer totally stressed out as she been late, she wanders in and takes her pose. And he's like, ‘Well, that's beautiful, too,’ and that's still a part of the ballet. So this, you know, as you're engaged in this creative process and you make a mistake, you often can make something more beautiful or more meaningful and mistakes aren't wrong answers, necessarily, which is a fantastic mindset for life, right? Jen: They’re happenstances. It's just like so many things happen because we've put them on our page or whatever it is, our tasks. But there is beauty in mistakes because you can grow from that. You can build on that, and you might find something that's even better than what you thought. Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. And I wish I knew more examples from sculpture or painting, but I'm sure that they exist. That if you talk to the artist, you know, they'd say, ‘Well, actually, I didn't intend or I didn't envision in this way. But it happened that I didn't have the right color paint that day or whatever and become something more beautiful. And then to the point of, you know, like the vision that you have in mind, art has this intrinsic discipline built in where there's no shortcuts. You have to put in the work to make, you know, the dancing, be what you want it to be. Or in a piece of music, you know immediately when you play that where those mistakes are and so you recognize actually freedom, that freedom of expression, that freedom of communication comes through discipline. And so many times in my life, I've been like, I'm so grateful that I learned that freedom comes through discipline. It seems like an oxymoron. So, there's a mindset benefit, but then there's an emotional benefit and an emotional component as well. Art can create a safe space or method for events or emotions that you can process those in a space without, that might be too overwhelming to process. So, think of art therapy or, you know, therapy for art therapy for veterans, there's art therapy for trauma victims. I experienced this personally, at the time when I was dancing like I wasn't philosophical about it at all, you know, I just dance because I loved it. But about 10 years after I retired, I started having a lot of physical issues and you know, I went to different physical therapists and doctors and stuff. It didn't seem like I was making a lot of progress, but different natural healers were like, ‘You have this pent up emotion.’ And I kind of wanted to push that aside because I was like, I don't think that that's true. I've never had pent up emotion in my life that wreaks havoc on my body. But I began to recognize like, oh, through a ballet class, through all the different music that I got to move to. You know, like, there's this emotional component, and I had an outlet for the emotions in my life and was able to push through those. And the nice thing about a lot of different art forms is it's it can be separate from language. So, when you think of language being a barrier, that's true across cultures. So, something that I love about ballet, an older gentleman pointed out this is like, yeah, if I go to the opera or the plays and I'm not familiar with the language or I'm not proficient at it, I miss it, but I go to the ballet and I don't have to know the language. You know, I just can take it in. Same thing with painting or music. I mean. So, art can be this fabulous outlet for young children, teens, my daughter is a musician and I tell you when she gets angry, she processes that on the piano like, ‘Oh, I know how she's feeling, and you can relate to the feelings of others . You can receive their emotional communication, and it's not dependent on language. So that's a really beautiful benefit. Jen: I am a geek for So You Think You Can Dance. Oh, yeah, I love that show and I love it when they have a piece that they have to connect with an emotion that they've had before, or an experience that they've had because it just is a whole different thing. Yeah. Then if they hadn't had that connection to that experience and they just say it's so therapeutic just to be able to dance out that emotions and everything else. Stephanie: Yes exactly, dance it out. Paint it out. Play it out in your music. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I love that art helps kids engage in the skill of creation. We don't think of creation, like working a creation muscle very often. You know, like, especially in a school setting, again, it feels like something totally different. But problem-solving is innovation. These are creative skills. Jen: There's probably also math in there as well. Yeah, because you have to keep time. Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. And it being a vehicle for your imagination, if you have those kids that are kind of just locked in this imaginary world, you know, if they have an outlet for that and get it out of their head and onto paper in, out of their head and into a song, get it out of their head and into a dance. You know, this is just, it's wonderful stuff. And then there are benefits specific to dance, which are, you know, things like body awareness, grace, coordination, focus, so much more. Jen: All those things I didn't have. Stephanie: Well, it's never too late. Hilary: We've got to get you dancing. Jen: Because of the fact that I love to see people's outside talents, you know where they can show everyone, I don't feel like I have those talents. I feel like mine are internalized. So, I love watching those programs. I've seen other people and what they can do and what they can create. Hilary: Yeah, yeah, absolutely . You know, I'm thinking about your comment related to kind of dealing with those emotions and emotional regulation. My daughter, so I have two daughters that both dance, and I'm thinking of my daughter when we started dance with her, it was right at about the time where she was dealing with a lot of anxiety and stress, right around COVID. If that sounds familiar to anybody out there, right? But it's so interesting as I process this because she is my child that is incredibly shy in most settings outside of our home. But when she dances, when she gets on that stage, she turns into a completely different person. She is confident, she is bold, you can tell that she loves what she's doing, and I do, I see that as an outlet for her. And as you talk about being able to find a way to work through those emotions, I think that that helped through that time in her life because she was going through a lot of stress. And I remember signing her up for dance, thinking, ‘This is one more thing that’s new. Maybe I shouldn't do this. You know, this is one more thing to add to her plate. This might even make it worse if I'm putting her in these settings, right? That might cause her more anxiety, but I can see that, oh gosh, it made a world of difference for her. Stephanie: Yeah, it's fun to be at the market because so many people will come up to me and say, ‘Oh my child did dance, and I'll hand them this list of Dance Gives Kids, you know, and have them read through it and they're like, ‘Yeah, all of that’. And I'm so glad, you know, and I haven't so far, I don't think I've come across any parent that said and they became a professional dancer, you know? But the benefits come from day one and last all the way through. I was the oldest of nine children. I had seven little brothers and I think dance was a gift for me because I loved like I loved, I don't know some of the strength in competition, but I knew I was a girl, you know, and I didn't want to be. I remember I have one younger sister, we tried once to wrestle because we saw our brothers doing it. They're tearing the house apart we got to try this, and it didn't work at all, but I feel like dance was this way for me to be bold, like talking about. And be brave and strong and all of those things that I admired so much about boys. But in a way that connected to my femininity, you know, be a girl and yet be tough as nails and all that. Hilary: And you know, it's interesting because I'm thinking about my two cute little ones. So, part of their dance training is they have to go through some conditioning, some of the hard things, right, working our muscles. And my cute little seven-year-old said to me one time she's like, ‘Can we just go and dance and not do the conditioning stuff because that stuff is hard?’ And I remember my son actually saying that about because he is a swimmer, and he mentioned to me one time, ‘I really like to compete at the swim meets. I don't like the practices.’ And I'm like sweety, that’s the nature of the beast, you know, in order to excel at the swim meets, in order to learn the dances, you need to work on the hard stuff. And I love that dance and arts ,it's like you said, it's a discipline, and it's helping children to work through hard things because in all honesty, I feel like that is something we are beginning to lack for our children, is that when something's too hard, it's OK to drop, that it's okay to let it go because Jen: We don't want you to feel bad or hurt or have hard feelings. Hilary: So, I love that we're teaching this lifelong skill that, you know, there are some things that are hard and there are times when it's maybe not going to be as enjoyable as it was going to be. Yeah, but I can see the benefit and I can see the end result of that. Jen: And it's more and it's that whole process of creating a foundation and moving up the levels as you build off of that strong foundation that you have. Stephanie: And that progress, like the benefit of that progress is immediately evident to the child. Unlike, you know, for example, like, ‘Oh, if you get good grades, then you can go to college and then you can move on to a career’, whatever that reward is pushed so far back. But the child can immediately recognize I can do that step and I couldn't do this or that painting my mom, you know, like, hung it up, you know, whatever. Or that piece of music like, you know, like if that intrinsic value that's right there and right accessible and traceable to them. Jen: They’re learning themselves so they can't disregard. Oh, that's just mom and dad telling me that. It's like, ‘No, I experienced that as what it was.’ Stephanie: Yeah, I can hear that I didn't play well. Hilary: So, you mention and I see this as well too, having family members in education, that we're starting to see a decrease in the arts and the focus on that. With that trend that I think we'll continue to see that trend, honestly, in the school system. How can we, as parents, implement more creativity in our child's lives, more arts? What can we do as individuals to help our children have a more well rounded experience in that area? Stephanie: You know, actually in Utah, the when they measure the level of arts engagement across the country, Utah actually scores pretty high. And I heard recently on the radio that, the educational outcomes in Utah, are pretty good. They're like, you know, some of the top in the nation and knowing how little art exists in the schools, I think parents are already doing a lot, which is really cool. But there are other things to do, and even with my background, when I when you just throw out the word art, you know, art engagement, I picture myself like in a museum, like standing and looking at something and then like going to the next thing and standing and looking at that, you know, like, it's kind of this static idea of art. But yeah, so shifting that into this creative idea and a creative space for children specifically, there is a lot that parents can do. And exposure, I think is huge. So my son who wanted, you know, decided he wanted to dance. He decided to become a professional dancer at age 10 because he went and saw the professional dancers. Yeah, and getting your kids out to experience something, there's so many ways to do that are free, yes, or low cost. Ballet Aligned, my dance school, we do a week of free classes every year for that exact reason, that exposure. The parents go, ‘I don't know if I want my kid to do this, I don't know if they'll even like it’, but without a big outlay of time or money they can try. They can see if they like it. Other resources, the Cash Center for the Arts does school shows that you can participate in. If your school isn't going to those, talk to the administrators because they are open and you'll be able to, and they're well attended. And that's been fantastic. And we've heard professional amazing musicians say that they decided to pursue what their life's passion, being music, because they went to and saw something. I think it's every other month. Logan has a gallery stroll. Yeah, my kids love that. And my husband and I love it as a date without the kids. So if we go on the date, we have to not tell them where we’re going. The art museum at the university has a community art day, the Tabernacle concert series, I love taking my kids to that. It's professional musicians and actors and different things, and it's just a little taste. It's a little taste that’s free, that doesn't take a lot of time. Also, I think of cultural events and worship services. So when you think of some of the greatest works of art, both musically, visual arts, they came from a religious space in either cathedrals or whatever. And so my family, when we study cultures, when we want to do an artistic type, it's cheap and free to like, go to somebody else's worship service or to go to the Cinco de Mayo celebration, you know, at the park. And that's all art does, it brings community together, it's cultural. It’s, you know, it can be found in worship traditions. So those are all free, easy, regular ways to get that exposure. But beyond exposure, right, in order to demonstrate to our children that creation has value, that their creation has value, I think it's wonderful to provide a venue for your kids.
So essentially what parents are doing when they're put their kids artwork on the fridge, hanging it up, right? Well expand that. You know, if you have a little creator, you know that's always doing these pictures, do a little gallery, an at home gallery, and invite friends over and serve fancy lemonade or something. And just, you know, like honor that thing. You know, if you have a little dancer at home, like you do, and they must move, stop what you're doing and clap when they're done. I mean, dancers work for applause. So, you know, acknowledging that recognizing it? Yeah, you can turn holiday celebrations into poetry readings. We, our family, loves to do that over the fall. Like, have people over and a firepit and read poetry, you know, for the kids that they have are verbal creators. So if creation is expressed, or if creative expression is seen and valued, it will lead to more creative expression. So and I think of all children as artists, right? They're little people with a unique experience and perspective on the world that most often they want to share, right? And so, they're artists. So if they're the artist, if you think of them as what they produce in that expression of their unique experience as being like the artistic fruit or whatever, the seed that needs to find that place to grow. So that's what all that exposure is, it's finding, does this plot of ground work for this thing, you know, like where are they going to thrive best? And then you find that area where they can thrive, let them there, watch them grow up, you know, and it's easy as parents to see like if your child's eyes light up, if they want to spend more time engaged in whatever activity. That's that tree growing and then as it grows, remember, that criticism kind of kills creativity. You know, you don't want to dump a truckload of manure on your tender plant. So move from, you know, and I'm terrible at this. In fact, as I was sharing some of these thoughts with my daughter in preparation for coming here, I was like, and I'm going to be saying this and I know I'm not very good at that. Give me your feedback. But yeah, you can do things to encourage them without criticizing them. So, for example, instead of like if they bring something or do something, instead of telling them how to make it better, then ask them lots of questions about it, you know. Instead of like, ‘Oh, what's this?’ Or, you know, whatever, say, ‘Oh, tell me about this drawing.’ ‘I like the colors’, you know. Or make observational statements like, ‘I noticed when you were doing x y z that you looked happy’, you know, and ‘talk to me about that sort of thing’. And then to encourage the growth, move them to a bigger pot. You know, expose them to more excellence. More excellence in whoever is offering them instruction, more excellence in their peers. I've seen my dancers grow and why I encourage kids to like go to summer programs all over the country because then they know what their peers are doing. That happened to me. I moved schools and I thought that there was this in order to get my leg up, I had to just be older and then I moved to a school and all the little girls my age, you know, had their legs higher than mine. And I was like, Oh, it's not something I just grow into, you know? Little kids can do, and I better get my butt in gear so that moving to that, you take the little plan that's growing to a bigger pot. And that is as much encouragement for excellence and growth and all of that. And then, so importantly, let that tree grow to full maturity. So I mentioned that I was the oldest of nine kids. My family was not well-to-do. And I asked my parents later why it was that they continued to support ballet. You know, it's not the most expensive thing that kids do, there are a lot of other, more expensive extracurricular activities, but it was expensive. It was a sacrifice for my family. And so when I asked my parents about that, they said we decided we didn't want to be the limiting factor. And I think sometimes parents, in order to not like, hurt their children, you know, are like, Oh, you're probably not going to be professional. So let's not do this anymore, you know. Or you don't seem especially gifted. So, you know, even though the child might find it absolutely delightful, let's not do this. And sometimes, I mean, speaking as a parent, I know that my son who wants to be a dancer still, he’s 19 now. But when he was young, he wanted to. He loved everything. He just wanted to try everything. And yes, sometimes you do have to pare it down a little bit. Don't predetermine, you know, they're not a bonsai tree, you know, like, here's this little box that I'm comfortable with you fitting in. Don't make that predetermination. Let that, you know, let the kid experience the expression of their creative capacity.
Hilary: I remember. So my daughter, who is nine, she happened to overhear a conversation that my husband and I were having one night about the cost of dance. And so she came to me one day and she said, ‘Mom dance too expensive for us to do?’ And you're right. Sometimes these activities are a little bit pricey, some pricier than others. But I remember when she said that, I got down, kind of knelt down and looked her in the eyes and I said, ‘Sweetie, do you love what you do?’ She said, ‘I do’. And I said, ‘I know you're working hard at it and it's making you a better person. So for us, the price tag doesn't matter. This is something that you want in your life and your father and I can worry about that on our own. You know, that's not that's not a worry that you need to have at this point’.
Stephanie: That’s a beautiful mother story.
Hilary: It is. I remember the first time I saw her on stage and I turned to my husband and I said, ‘I'll pay whatever I need to’, because this, seeing her there excelling at something that she loves doing. So this is worth it. And it's so funny that you talk about, you know, not necessarily putting them in a box or, you know, having these preconceived ideas. My son, who just went to middle school today, by the way, the first day of school. And I'm sure they do this in most schools, but they had the orchestra, the band, the choir, they all come to the elementary school and kind of do a quick presentation, show everybody what it could actually look like. Yes. And so I remember my son coming home and saying, I want to do band. I want to do percussion, which is something that my husband and I know nothing about. I’ve never ventured into that realm. And we both looked at each other and thought. OK, we'll give this a try. But it's so exciting, and it was, it was through that and you're right, it was that experience of getting just a quick taste of it, and they probably did one song to the elementary students, but that was enough to entice them into saying, I want to try this. And I think it's fantastic that they give them those opportunities to see that.
Stephanie: We just need dance in there.
Jen: There's one judge on the show that always says, Now look at that and what was just done, that is a sport. That is not just dance, that is a sport. There's conditioning, there's, you know, all of that stuff, muscle memory, all of that comes with other sports. Yeah. And if we could realize that that is a sport, how much more can we do? Stephanie: What an interesting thought. Hilary: So, I have a question for you. I'm thinking about kind of, sorry, going back to what one of our previous conversations, what conversation was, but . I have a one child who's incredibly motivated. What she does and then I have another child that tends to drag his feet when he has to do things. And I found as a parent that it's hard for me to know when to let an activity go and when to try something new because I'm fearful that I'm having him let it go just because it's getting hard. Yeah. And so when does it, you know, when you have these kids that are coming to you grumbling and complaining , mom , I don't want to do the practice , mom , I don't want to go today . Do you have any any advice on when do we keep moving forward versus when do we say, You know what? I think it's time to try something different. Yes? Yeah. What would you say? So that's a great question, and I remember complaining to my parents about my weight loss, for sure . I think that that when you're when you do something hard, there's going to be times that you don't want my parents answer, which I've used with my own children as well . We paid for this through this. Yes. And at that point that you paid for, then you can renegotiate . But but that happened recently with with my son. So he's 10, so he's not involved in as much as it might be if he was older . But he's in piano lessons and he says that he doesn't like it. And my sense of it just, you know , that mother sounds like he's saying this , first of all , and sometimes the piano gets involved in the way of , yes , him playing and doing other . Not so it's not necessarily that he doesn't like the thing. He just wants to do something else right at that moment. But when I watch him play, you know , like or that , I know that maybe he's not practicing , but he'll be drawn to the piano . You know, you just kind of like playing these little songs or whatever . And it's like, No , that's that's something that he likes . But my other daughter, she was in piano lessons . She stopped it. And I just, you know , when she she started to complain more , she'd never really access the piano , you know , on her own . You have to be reminded. And I just said, you know , like . If you stop now, you won't become better than you already are . Are you OK with that? And she said she was so selfish. You have done that. She's a swimmer. Yeah, yeah . No, go ahead . Jen: I was just thinking of my nephew, and he does taekwondo. And he got to the point where he hated it. He's like, ‘No, I'm not going to go anymore’. But he would practice at home and things like that. And it was when he got to the place. So they're like, maybe it's the environment that he’s in. Maybe we need to have them find a different environment for him. And they found a different taekwondo place, took him there, and he has just blossomed and loved it. So sometimes it's not the child. Hilary: Or necessarily the activity itself. Stephanie: Another thing that comes up with dance a good amount is, as the kids get older, they get bored. And as I began to recognize that I'm like, Oh, they need harder, which is, you know, the opposite of maybe what you're thinking as a parent. You know, they're complaining that they don't like it. And so, you know, maybe it's too hard or whatever. My little girl did that when she was just little with cleaning the house. Okay, you are going to vacuum the stairs. And it was just enough harder than anything that she's done that she was like, oh, OK, you know, I'll show you. Yeah, I might have even said, I think this is too hard for you. And she's just that personality, you know, like, oh yeah, I’ll show you. So yeah, try all of the above.
Hilary: Well, that's a great piece of feedback and advice for parents, because you're right. I think that it's hard. As a parent, you'll probably know, you know, you're going to watch your child's cues and you're going to observe and I think that you take into that account. But sometimes they're just tired and they've had a rough day at school. Or, yeah, they may just need a break for the day, but they still have that passion from within. And so, it's a way of igniting that again. But I like that because I think most of us have heard our children complain about going to some type of extracurricular activity. Right? And it's hard when you are the one that's paying the bill, you're like, Sweetheart, you've got to get there, whether you want to or not. Yeah, I've obviously had this conversation at my house.
Stephanie: I've told my kids like, Hey, you know, maybe not with dance, in my mind, it's like, you can't miss classes. You're going to, you know, like, oh, well, OK, you don't have to go, you just have to pay me for this lesson that you don't go to.
Hilary: And that's a great tip.
Jen: I always, if you don't do allowance, I'm always like, Yes, you can pay me for that by doing X, Y, and Z, which I hate doing. So now you do it, and that's how you can pay that, you know? So, yeah
Hilary: So this question is a little bit off topic, but it is related to what we're talking about. So, is there anything we can do? I'm still thinking kind of on that school system, but is there anything we can do to encourage more arts and education within our schools that our children are going to? What would your suggestion be?
Stephanie: I think, so there are these amazing programs. So, Ballet West for children, that tries to hit every elementary school in the state. I worked when I was there as a dancer and even since, the director of education, there is over that program. And I asked him, How's it going? You know, he said there's just such an emphasis on test scores now that working on that mastery that you mentioned, they're getting squeezed out. And so I think like communicating with your school administrators, this is something that I would love, you know, and the nice thing when it does come from the school, it doesn't cost the parents money and it's not an extra trip to extra lessons. So yeah, talk to your school administrators. Talk to your teachers.
Jen: I just think there's so many valuable lessons to learn in art that are also educational. I remember in college I took one of those elective classes and it was all about music and I didn't like it, but if I listened to that music while I was studying math, then I could compare the two and so or it brought it back in the moment of a test or whatnot to where it's like, OK, I was doing this, this song was playing and this is what I was learning. And so, I feel like there's a lot of connections that can be made through art, and a lot of lessons you can teach through that.
Stephanie: Yeah. And so, we can all speak to that, like from her own personal experience, like you were just doing. But there are studies. And in fact, I wonder if it's possible, could I share a link with you?
Jen: And I will put it in the show notes.
Stephanie: So, there have been studies that talk about how art creates that, like cross discipline connection for kids. So, when art is used in the school, retention goes up, grades go up, scoring on standardized testing goes up, including in those non art related subjects. So, SATs are higher, writing tests are higher. Kids have higher GPAs. They are more likely to aspire to college, get good grades. If they've had high arts engagement in their K-12 educational experiences, they're three times more likely to earn a bachelor's degree.
Jen: I remember in the arts or the music class, he says it gets both sides of your brain working at the same time instead of just one side working.
Stephanie: And that integration is basically the things that we know are connected to one another to access things and how our memories work. And so the more we can make those connections, art kind of like is that spider web that pulls it all together. Another benefit that this study found, it's all I'll tell that yes, it's happening. I think if more parents knew there would be absolute pressure on the school, to use this. And that's part of why I'm here. Like, everybody needs to know this. Kids who are who have higher art engagement are more likely to be civically engaged. And in fact in schools. And they found this especially true in like underserved schools. And so where kids are like economically more depressed or whatever that it's a great equalizer. Art improved the school climate and improved the kids confidence. So they took these high risk girls and put them in jazz and hip hop classes and they found that their confidence went up. And it turns the schools into communities so kids feel connected to one another in a way that they don't connect otherwise in other classes. So, it improves everything. I'm excited to send you the link because it's fun.
Hilary: And I'm making the assumption that seeing these benefits, like you said, this connection, I can see a lot of educators thinking I don't have an extra 40 minutes to implement another art lesson. And it probably doesn't have to be a 40 minute lesson. It could be a we've got five additional minutes, let's get the students up. Let's get them moving, you know, or let's do this very quick art project. I mean, I would assume that you could even do bits and pieces of it sporadically throughout your day. Have music playing while we're working on this particular craft. Different things like that. It doesn't have to be super big.
Stephanie: And I think they're squeezed for time because of the emphasis on the test scores. And if parents knew that art increases test scores, maybe they wouldn't be so squeezed for time. You know, maybe they'd be like, You know what? And that's kind of I think we tend to think of humanity generally as like little input units or, you know, like little cogs in the machine or whatever. But we're integrated human beings and kids can get some of that integration through art in the school, then everything is more beautiful.
Hilary: And I really think, I think that integration, that's probably key. Because again, I think we see schooling, and not to discredit our schools by any means, I adore them. But yeah, I think often times we see it as a box, as the science box, and we're going to focus on that. And then we're going to move on to math, which is a separate box and there is a completely separate box for art or music or whatever that would be. And I love this idea of integration, that it doesn't have to be completely separate, categorized. We can have this hybrid, this combination of both.
Jen: Well, you can use that arts to teach the concept you're trying to teach. I remember when I was in, that was in sixth grade and I was a very long time ago. But my science teacher, she had us create out of tissue paper. We were making hot air balloons. And it took several different class periods to create this. But it was that you were creating something and learning how to make it so it would go up in the sky. . So, you're teaching a concept just through a different avenue.
Hilary: And still as a something, something year old, I won't say your age, you still remember that from back in sixth grade. That lesson.
Stephanie: My husband and I, when we were discussing like how we wanted to educate our kids, we kind of examined what is it that we remember? And we found that the creation like, all through, like I can remember making little like the dioramas of Native American villages and learning about the different tribes. And that was like first grade, right? Jen: Do they even do those shoe box dioramas anymore? I loved those. Stephanie: I don't know. Those are so fun, I’ve done those with my kids at homeschool like, hey, here's another fun thing we can do to do. But we know a lot of fun creations what we remember. And back to the integration, one of my favorite stories about this is Steve Jobs, right? We think of him as a fantastic innovator, but he thought of computers, less as machines and more like he thought of the human interaction with the machine instead of just the machine, right? And so he used that artistic sense and his artistic background to build something better. And so, so does it impact science? Absolutely. Does it impact math? Yes, absolutely. Music. You know, we talked about some of those Jen: English, doing a proper poem or something. Hilary: Yes. So as our time comes to a close, I would love to hear just maybe some closing success stories of what you've seen with your own children, with yourself, with others, the children that you've worked with involved in arts and dancing. Yeah, we've been we've been talking about the things that parents can do. So one of you know, just to start off, like the most personal circle of yes, let's talk about what I know best. My husband was not a dancer, doesn't have the same background I did, but when our kids were growing up, he did a thing called Ninja School. Oh yes. And the kids, you know, are running around the house anyway. So he just directs traffic. Now you leap over this, now you crawl under that, you know. Like and as part of Ninja School, because ninjas have to be very stealth. You do like this thing with them where like where the person would be blindfolded and then the other people would hide in the room in plain sight. And the kids would have to just be totally quiet and focus on like who's breathing and where the furniture is and all of that. So he did Ninja School, which is, you know, kind of funny. But you don't have to have an art background necessarily to help kids get some of the same benefits, of it's specifically a dance class, and we talked about some of those benefits of increased focus and coordination and all of that. I have four kids. One of the dancer, but three are non-dancers who spent very little time actually in a dance class . And I think just this increased awareness. So he would also ask the kids to like, eat with the opposite hand or brush their hair or teeth with the opposite hand. And you talked about the imbalance that absolutely does that. So, my kid’s in swimming. I've got a swimmer, a martial artist, and a singer, and they all have excelled in what they've done. In fact, my daughter in her singing lesson is given these body corrections that aren't too dissimilar from what I talk about in a dance class.
And she's connected up. She’s, you know, she relates to them immediately, and it makes the difference. So that's pretty cool. And other things that parents can do, you know, to get some of those same benefits, ask your kid to spell his or her name using their body, you know, create different shapes, and that helps them with spatial awareness. I got a little nephew that's a bruiser. And you talk about, you know, like how to help kids develop better, and I talked about like, don't criticize, right? That kills the creativity you can use, like an artistic approach to change your kid's behavior. So this little nephew that I have, that's just like so rah, you know, aggressive and tearing into the other kids. Like if you have a kid that has that issue, help them play with the amount of force they're using, you know, be like, can you stomp around the house like an elephant? Start where they're comfortable. Give me those biggest stops. And then like, what would that look like if you were, you know, as light as a balloon. And kind of get them to play with that so that when they are using too much force, you can say, you know, like try that again with a hot air balloon force instead of an elephant force, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah. And now I'm trying to think of what else. Yeah, talking about that emotional benefit. It's music, put music on, start moving. Yes, we talked about the benefit of just moving your bodies, but you can also engage your kids and talk about feeling like, ‘I like this song because it makes me feel happy.’ Or, you know, ‘I like the song because it makes me feel energetic like I can go out and conquer the world,’ and then ask your kid, ‘how does the song make you feel?’ Then that conversation about feeling is going, that really integrates the kids’ experiences. Hilary: I'm just thinking here at our office. We've talked about this on the podcast before. We talk a lot about energy levels and helping children to understand where their energy is, whether it's a high energy, low energy and if they're comfortable or uncomfortable with where that energy is. And I love that what you're saying here directly correlates with what we're teaching here and helping children to identify how they're feeling inside and whether it's something that they like or don't like and what we can do to modulate to get to that place. Stephanie: Yeah, it gets them the words. It helps them see adults model that verbiage. Jen: Yeah, I mean, I was on the same wavelength as you. I'm like, ‘that's our kids place right now,’ exactly. Because the kids that come to the kids place here, they do yoga, they do art, they do sensory, they do all of these things. And during those activities, it is asking those questions. How are you feeling when you're playing with this or creating this or, you know, moving to this music? So just asking those questions and you can learn a lot. Hilary: So cool. I want you to be able to give you the opportunity one more time, even though you've already stated it. But tell us once again for those of us that are here local in Cache Valley, what services you offer yourself and what other services are available in our area to get children connected to arts. Stephanie: OK. Yeah. So, Ballet Aligned is my ballet school. And we offer ballet classes obviously. About four times a year through a school year, we do free story times and we do free classes and free lectures and seminars, and you can find all of that on balletaligned.com/events. You can dig around the website. My background is there and all that sort of thing. So that's ballet. But local events, the local art museum at the University, Gallery strolls, yeah, what else have I mentioned? Hilary: I'm just thinking of all the religious groups like you mentioned, right? Things that are held at the Tabernacle. There’s always events there. Jen: You have the pumpkin walk and things. Hilary: Even something as simple as that, just taking your kids to the pumpkin walk. Stephanie: Yes. Yes. And that goes back to that community engagement and how that increases with arts engagement. I think that’s, you know, like those kids that are involved in art creation, you see them everywhere in the community. It's the same families, interestingly, and maybe sadly, you know, I need to find a way to reach parents who haven't found that joy. Yeah. So, thanks for thanks for having me. Hopefully we will reach more. Hilary: Hopefully, this has given some of those parents that opportunity to say, I want to be involved more in that community. Stephanie: And they’re fun family things to do like that get you moving. They get you out the door, off the screens. Hilary: Yeah, we need more of that. We all do, including myself. Jen: Well, thank you so much for coming and being on the podcast today. I'm just thinking, man, I wish my little stepdaughter was younger because then we could, because I'm just thinking well you can create a neighborhood group that comes over and does art. Yeah, but she's 16. She probably would not like that. Stephanie: 16 year old one. Maybe she and her friends could do like a scene at the pumpkin walk. Jen: That is true. Stephanie: So we take on those bigger projects. Jen: That is true. Appreciate it so much. And I hope you were able to grab a wonderful piece of information, a golden nugget that you can apply in your lives as well. Thanks again for joining us and we will see you next week. Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org, or you can reach Jen on Facebook, Jen Daly – The Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is thefamilyplaceutah.org, if you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes. We'd love to see you there!
Subject Resources: - Information on getting involved in Hansel and Gretel, an original ballet to benefit The Family Place premiering this spring, directed by Steffanie Casperson and presented by Ballet Aligned: BalletBenefit.com. - A study on the benefits of dance instruction in primary education: https://www.arts.gov/sites/default/files/Research-Art-Works-NDEO.pdf Contact us: -Email us questions or topic ideas: parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org -Record questions here: https://anchor.fm/theparentsplace -Parent's Place FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/196037267839869/ - https://www.facebook.com/jendalyTFP Music by Joystock
- https://www.joystock.org
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