Conflict is a part of our daily life. Even when we say we don't like conflict so we do not have it, that is conflict! However, while it is part of our daily life, many of us do not know how to work through and deal with Conflict. Karleen Savage is here to share her knowledge and walk us through steps to work through it. Through Curiosity to reframing, we can all learn better how to handle conflict.
Karleen has a Masters of Conflict Resolutions and Negotiations. She is also a certified hostage and crisis negotiator and has worked crisis lines and conflict chat sessions online. She has over 15 years of experience in this and has created a course to help educate others on how to resolve conflict.
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Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen.
Hilary: Welcome to the Parents Place Podcast today. Jen and I have a special guest with us that we are excited to learn from. This is Karleen Savage, and we were speaking with her beforehand. About a little bit about what her expertise is and guys, I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled to learn from her today. So she, she has 15 years of conflict resolution expertise and we were just joking beforehand about our feelings towards conflict, so I'm sure that she is going to bring up a little bit about what conflict is. Some of the myths and misconceptions regarding conflict and. And how we as individuals and families can go about, maybe better resolving conflict in general. And understanding what it is, but. Before we dive into that. Karleen, I'm just gonna let you tell a little bit about who you are and what you do on a day-to-day basis.
Karleen: Fabulous. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here with you guys. What it is and a little bit about what I do on a day-to-day basis, I'm a conflict resolution expert. That's what I got my masters in. In 2015 and I waited till all my little cherubs were older and yeah, it was a phenomenal life changing experience. I went to work as a mediator. And in the courts and absolutely loved what the skills could do. And as I saw that I just fell in love with the practice and because I did, I went on and certified in hostage and crisis negotiations and two separate certifications and absolutely loved the experiences there and what I learn. And how I could take that on the road basically, and basically what I saw in those three practices is they have an enormous amount of success anywhere from 60 to 89% from the last I heard. 60 to 89% of success when they deal with conflicts. And I saw what started bubbling to the top for me. As I saw some common themes and common threads that they all use. And I thought, why are we waiting till the last minute to do this? So to share this, to use it. And I thought it's because everybody's getting paid. They're checking into a job and they're getting paid and. They're not really using it and sharing it with people and so I decided I'm going to go into business for myself and I'm on the road sharing these skills, how do mediators crisis and hostage negotiators get people out of those situations safely. How do they instrument or how are they instrumental in doing that? It is actually we don't have the power to get them out. All we have the power to do is get involved. And so now we're now. That's what I do is I share in my online classes. I have been an adjunct professor. They're used it in my own life. That's a whole story anyway. So that's where what brought me forward on this. And I love, love, love seeing what happens to people when they see the power they have to resolve conflicts.
Hilary: I am sure you have many, many stories to tell. Very intriguing stories and in my little head. I'm like I need to hear all the stories, but that's not what we're here. Maybe we'll do that later. But you know what I love that you shared Karleen. I love that you said, you know, there are people like myself that are doing this, and we have this knowledge and expertise, and then we getting these jobs, and we don't necessarily. I mean actively share this information with the general public. And so I love that you have taken that approach and said, hey. We have learned, you know, we have these 60 to 89% success rates. Like why are we not sharing this information? And I love that you bring up, you know, often with these hostage and crisis, you know negotiation situations and I'm making this assumption that I mean by the time we get involved in that point, it's to the extreme level. But you know you're talking more about the prevention. Like if we can start building these skills within families and communities before it gets to that high extreme level, hopefully we can eliminate a lot of what occurs to get to that point. So I love that you're sharing this with us.
Karleen: Yes, on the nose right there. That's right. I'm trying to get to people to help them understand they have the power to intercede to influence. You, you know, change the course or course correct or anyway that's my mission. I'm on. I would love to share it with people. You have the power.
Hilary: Hey, I love it. I love it. Well, let's start with this because I think so often when we hear the word conflict, when we use the word conflict, even when we were joking beforehand, before we started the podcast. You know, I think oftentimes with conflict, there's a negative connotation, right. I don't want conflict. Conflict is awful. Conflict is bad. If we're dealing with conflict, something must be wrong with us or wrong with our relationship. So, let's kind of examine that word. And that topic in general and tell us a little bit about your feelings about what exactly is conflict. Is it bad? Should it be happening in our life kind of stick to the basics to begin with?
Karleen: Sure, you're dealing with conflict even if you don't like it. And the fact that you say you don't like it, that is a conflict. Where does conflict begin? It begins right here in between our ears. We, a lot of conflict experts will say it's two people that can't see eye to eye and you're trying to deal. No, it's not. And I'm one of the I only know of me being the first one to actually say it doesn't start there. It started here. It started here that I don't want to deal with conflict. And so, then if you don't want to deal with conflict that is your conflict, because then you don't come forward authentically. Because now you're going. I don't want to really do this. So I'm going to do. I'm only going to do, you know, my toe is in my foot, is in up to my knee is in. But I'm not in. And so that's why you continue to have conflict because you're not all in. It's amazing what happens when you go all in when you're fully invested. Meaning I I'll bring this back when you're dealing with a crisis situation. We are all in. We're not pretending. We are not going. Yeah, I kind of want to talk to you. I. Kind of don't want. To talk to you, we are all in. That is the difference between those that are conflict averse and those that are not. They are all in on this. So it's not about whether it's good or bad, what is conflict. So we were joking about going to the beach. You know, we could talk about going to the beach, what conflict happens if your husband's driving or you're driving. You don't like to ask for directions, you're lost. You're going to New City. Guess what? That's a conflict. Inside your car. But it starts here. Because somebody got frustrated because the other person isn't driving the thought so it's a conflict here, and then it begins the conflict externally, right by the comment that you make. I'm a great backseat driver. I'm a great backseat driver. So, what happens is I can sit there and go. There's a there's a car. There's a four way stop. You know, there's somebody you can't change lanes. There's a car coming down. You know, I'm good at that. Well, I'm confident that it annoys the heck out of my husband. Right. And but he doesn't say anything. Is that a conflict? Yes, it's still a conflict because he's thinking something. He'll react to me a certain way. Can we hold hands in the car? Maybe. If he's agitated, he doesn't want to. Do you see how just these subtle minutia things we do. And guess what we do? We compile those all, collect them all. Collect all of our annoyances from our kids, collecting from the people at the grocery store. Collect them from our clock because we ran late for something. Collect them because you know we couldn't get the laundry done. Collect them because you know we're not getting along with the other person in the other department. We're collecting these, and then what we do is we blast them. We blast them by the way we come across. By how harsh we approach things or not, or by how timid we are. We come across by the way we dress, we come across, we are taking all of these things that we have collected. Now 75% of our thoughts are negative. So we're picking up mostly what's negative, right? We're not going. Oh my gosh, she looked at me that special way, you know? Oh, my gosh. My kids said they love me. We're not collecting those in our head and going out and broadcasting that. What we're doing is we're collecting all the negative. And then we go forward. So we came to this call, collecting stuff. How did we show up? How did each one of us show up? That's conflict. And that's where it begins. And then it gets to public level. Then it gets to cross department level, leadership levels, and then it goes into, you know, spewing into our kids and you know, our civic situations. And then it goes to crisis, hostage, courtrooms.
Hilary: Well, you're making me just totally kind of rewire my brain when it comes to conflict. Because you're right, you can. You know, it's gotta start. It starts with. My thoughts and feelings that come up and depending on my response, that's what drives it. And so I think that's so important because so often with conflict it's really easy for us to blame someone else and to be like they started it. They said it.
Karleen: Oh my gosh, that is where this. That's the start line we start that we start all conflict at the start line of how somebody else treated me. How my kids talk to me, how my we don't start it up here. Like when you looked in the mirror this morning. How did you feel? Did you look in the mirror? Why didn't you look in the mirror? You know what I mean? Because we're doing all of these things. So then now we're on Autopilot. No, I don't have any problems in the morning. It's all good. It's because you already decided where you were at with it. So. So I guess now what you do is you look at the things you're doing publicly. And dial it back. How did I get there? How did we get there? How did it look. And so, I gave my Ted talk on and I noticed that you guys did Molly, you guys did, talked about Molly, who did a Ted talk as well. So in my Ted talk I talk about. Like the, you know, major conflicts when they become public, when they become relationship conflicts, what does that look like? Well, it started here. You had an idea. Of the relationship, it didn't work. It didn't last. It didn't look that way. How did you react to that? How did you react? And then you and then you walk it out. So where are we today? How do we feel about things today? And then dial it back. Find out where that started.
Hilary: So, you're saying that I'm the problem then? No I’m just kidding!
Karleen: Or I'm saying you're the solution.
Hilary: OK. I like that. I like that more.
Karleen: Yeah, I I'm not saying you're the problem. It can be a problem, but my message is you are the solution. Do you know how empowering it is to know? I know how to get out of it. I know how to change my conversation. To lift others, therefore, they will lift me. I know how to help people see the whole picture. I know how to course correct something that I know went bad. Now I know how to do those things. Do you know how empowering that is? That's why when I was saying, you know, I've always been dealing with conflict, haven't always enjoyed it. But I've always dealt with it. And I think for me in the early stages of conflict, it looked like the Mama Bear syndrome. The Mama tiger kind of thing. Don't mess with my kids. Don't mess with my family. Don't. And I became this very and I am. I mean, I look strong and assertive and even aggressive. And for some that are really conflict averse, they will avoid me like the plague. I just had. I just had a wonderful conversation and we just got put into kind of a room with three women. One woman with one woman is very timid, very conflict averse. I've known her for three years. We have worked together like in the same group but and. She is the leader of the group. Never spoken to me in three years.
Hilary: Wow.
Karleen: So, we ended up getting and this is very common for me now. It's because you know, my countenance has changed. Things have changed because I came out. So my husband had suffered a brain injury about almost 3 decades ago. I went from this very doting woman to, you know, and doting all over my kids. And this is my job. And I was just so great to this fierce don't mess with me. I will make everyone accountable. I can find every loophole I can uncover every rock I can turn it. That I went from this very doting to this very fierce woman, and now I've leveled out. But I still look the way I look and I still talk the way I talk. And so I got in this room with this woman and I didn't get into it. We just ended up being three people and we ended up talking and she kind of sat way away from me. Can you imagine three people in the room? And she's sitting away from me like and. We got to talking and I just was myself. We were laughing so much. About all these things and at the end she goes, Oh my gosh, this was so fun. And it's because I already knew she was worried about me, right? So, I knew how to deal with the conflict. Now old school me would have gone. You're afraid of me? Guess what? That pisses me off. And now I'm going to make you pay for it. And I'm going to talk to you. I'm going to snub you. I'm going to ignore you. Whatever I need to do to get the message across that you offended me and so instead I just was myself and we talked. And at the end she had that reply. And then I said to her. Before we parted. I said, you know, I just, I just want to say I'm so glad that you stayed in the room. I said I'm going to be really transparent. I know that you and I have kind of avoided each other a little bit and she shook her head yes. And I said, I know I come on strong. I'm not everybody's ice cream flavor. And she said. Yeah. And I said, but I'm so grateful that you went bold and you stayed in it. And she goes, I am so glad I did too. She was dealing with her conflict too. And so she had to walk through it mentally. And then all I did was aid and facilitate my part of it. My part of how I can do this. It's not a manipulation, it's understanding the conflict. Yeah. And then showing up and not making it your own. Her conflict in her mind. Sorry, her conflict in her mind was not mine. That is the, you know that cliche statement. It's their problem. It's not yours. OK, I think we've misused that fiercely misused it because in that situation I just shared, she did have her own. But I didn't stand in that in that situation and go. Yeah, it's your problem, not mine. And I'm going to treat you badly because of it and how dare you? I didn't do that. And I think that's what we do a lot. We justify that we get to mistreat or act a little bit tense. Because it's their problem, not mine. When in reality, how I bring and how I recognize their problem is mine. So, does that make sense?
Hilary: Yeah, I mean, I just think if you're just going back to this. As I as I hear you talk about us, I think a huge component of this is just us being aware, just having that awareness factor cause like you said, you came into this situation already thinking certain things that other colleague came into this situation thinking very different things. But the fact that you were aware of that and aware of some of those thoughts and feelings that were already happening. But then I love that you brought up. This idea that. That you took, you focused on what you have control over. And I think that's what half of our problem is in society is that we're trying to control what we cannot control other peoples ideas and perceptions, which we may not necessarily be able to change. But we can control how we react and how we respond. Like you said, coming how we come across what our tone is, how we look, how we dress. I mean that's what we have control over. And so I think. Man, that's where the power lies is if we can take advantage of that.
Karleen: Yeah, absolutely. It's in, it's in you, it's in you. You have it.
Hilary: Just got to find it.
Karleen: I do talk about in my Ted talk, the most pivotal tool. That all three of these practices use is curiosity. And curiosity in the field of conflict. That looks a lot of times, we say, oh, to be a really great communicator. Well, think about it. Mediators, crisis and hostage negotiators are exceptional communicators, and they use curiosity. Now, not all curiosities are created equal. And it's really kind of an eye opening idea that there's a lot of different curiosities. When I tell people that use curiosity, I've had people go. Oh yeah, OK, I got that. I use it all the time. But then when you look at it, they use curiosity in the form of ultimatum. You know, did you really think that was going to be OK with that. The form of a question is their curiosity and the curiosity used by conflict experts is an exceptional desire to learn. A desire to learn about the situation, to learn about the process of getting to that mindset, to learn about how that comes across. So that woman, when we were in the room with three of us. The other woman says you're right. You do come across really strong now. How would we normally react if somebody said, yeah, you really come across strong would how would we react to that? And so when you're being curious, you can say things like, ah, I know, how did it work for you? You know, how did you process that? How does that feel? You know, did what did you notice? And it just becomes very liberating because you are in. You are empower and empowered to open up that can of worms on your own. Because you become an exceptional learner. It's not about you better say something nice to me or tell me all the things I want to hear, because that's what we girlfriends do with each other. Ohh, no. No, it's really, you know, he's a jerk for saying that to you. And we do that to protect our own position in the friendship. Not to not to advocate the friendship or advocate their position in the world. We're doing it to protect our friendship.
Hilary: Yeah.
Karleen: And so anyway, so curiosity is really a core.
Hilary: And how do you get over the fear of asking some curiosity questions and getting feedback that you that may hurt, that may be hard to hear.
Karleen: Well, let me ask you a question and I don't know how. It may be a little tough, but I wanted to know. Yeah. Blah blah blah. I just so I just did it. It's not if I'm wanting to learn. If I'm wanting to learn, it's so important. Do you want to learn? It's so important to know that about yourself.
Hilary: Yeah.
Karleen: So, I'm angry. So, I just did a I was just on the phone with somebody yesterday, a CEO of a of a company, and he was a vendor of ours and he didn't deliver and he gave me all these guarantees in writing. And he says I'm not going to promise any of those. So tough conflict, right. And I said, but it says here you guarantee or I don't pay. He goes, why do you expect something for free? I said I don't hold up. I don't expect something. And so we went, you know, back and forth kind of thing. And I'm going. I don't expect something for free, but it says if you don't do it, it doesn't cost me anything. He does. It's ridiculous. I would never give you anything for free because I'm a business person. So. We're in a conflict and I can choose whether I want to learn. Or I want to stand. And so I verified. Is this yours? Is this what you said? Is this what we've said? 100 things, yes. But I'm not asking about the 100 things I'm asking about this. And so when you're when you're curious, you're staying very dialed in to what is happening? What is being said? You know how it's being said. And he goes, you want something for free? I said I have never said the word free. I've said it shouldn't cost me anything. That's what you wrote in the e-mail. And so he's going well. You hired us to do this, didn't you? And I said. That's irrelevant at this point. We're talking about your promises. So do you see how I'm. I'm not saying it's an easy conversation. What I'm saying is I'm trying to understand and learn about this. I'm not trying to learn, you know, he pulled up documents. This is how it works. This is our other documents, this. And it's like he isn't that what happens when you're in an argument? It's like everybody goes everywhere. You said this that when you said when we went here and you said this, when we went over here and they try and distract. Mediators, crisis hostage negotiators, we stay dialed in. And we focus on what is at hand, the problem at hand and we don't go 15 different ways. Now, if it's relevant to the conversation, OK. But I was just getting to my situation and I didn't handle everything right in that call. I can tell you that because it was. Part of my head was going. Oh my gosh, are you? Are you serious? Because he would fling out things at me like little and tell me if you haven't heard this in arguments. Oh, so you don't. This isn't a priority. I went. Wait, what? I said priority. So. So here is the conflict and you throw out little zingers when you're in those conflicts, right? And then you can't be blamed, right? So we can't. He can't be blamed for me saying don't throw out zingers. What do you mean? I was just asking you, is it a priority? Is it a priority to you? Those are the things that we do in conflict because we lack the skill to get curious. And so, it's fascinating to me as a conflict expert to watch people flow in that. And then you go. I understand why you're having problems. I understand why. I'm having problems and I understand how you're having problems.
Jen: I'm just thinking of. If I am staying curious and they are not, is there a way for me to help maneuver them in that way of let's get them curious as well so that this is more of a or conversation instead of a tip for that kind of a thing.
Karleen: So, I can't make you get into curiosity, but I can handle my conversation so you can't avoid it. So when I was talking to him and he was trying to dart 15 different ways. Case because he was he was in the wrong. He found. You know, he found out his team had misspoke. And had issued some commitments that he wasn't prepared to follow through on. So getting him into curiosity was not the task. Making sure I stay dialed in, making sure that I was willing to hear him, and so at points in the conversation, I would say tell me I'm willing to. Are you willing to hear him. Being able to apply so I have the thing called the savage theory of resolution. It's five skills that these experts use, and so you use those skills. So I'm not maneuvering him into anything. I'm maneuvering my conversation. So the five skills. One is curiosity, which means you want to learn. The second skill is your attitude. Your attitude is I'm here for it. I'm here in it. I'm here, present. But I'm. Not going to fix this. My third skill is master listening and what it is it's mind mapping it's story mapping the situation when they say something you ask them to fill in the gaps. When we're upset, we talking bullet points. You promised this you didn't deliver. Your person said this. Then I go to this person. They said this, that's bullet points. Story mapping is going OK when you talk to them. When was that? What did they say? And then when did you talk to the next person? When did what happened there? And then when did you talk to them? So you were led to believe this connection is the 4th skill. Connection is it seems like which is? You know the conversation that I had seems like you guys were disconnected. Looks like looks like you're the business owner and they misspoke. And he says, yeah, they misspoke. And I've gotten all over his case for it and blah, blah, blah. You let him run. I'm not trying to make him curious. You just let him run. He's going to go on a tirade and the 5th skill is reframing. So the 5th skill is taking all this information that we've been collecting. Because we've been good and curious and learning and saying, OK, so here's the situation you promised me this, your guy misspoke. He when I went to the next meeting to get that information, he didn't provide it. They told me they would provide it the next week, when that happened, he said. We don't even have this. I said so. Then I find out you don't have it at all. And now I'm with you and you're telling me you do have it, but you don't provide it. And so where is the guarantee where? What am I going to? So the here's the reframe. So what do you want to? Do. About it, how do? You want to fix this? Here's my idea and you can give options in there because a lot of people don't exercise curiosity enough to be really creative thinking in solutions, and that's what conflict resolution experts really get. The creativity of solutions. And so in that situation, he said. So what do you want? And I already told him I just wanted a refund and I said, well, I said I wanted a refund. So I guess the real question here is what do you want? How do you want to settle it? Because you've already rejected my idea. That's the reframe. Because we've gone through everything and so. When you're working in a conflict, Jennifer, you're not going to maneuver them in anything. And I think that's why we have even more conflict, because we're still trying to make that person understand our side and agree with us. What if, what if, what if it didn't matter whether they agreed or not? That they just got true about their situation. Do we want more? Truth in our situation? Or do we want them? Just to see that we were right.
Jen: Oh, my heavens, I need this.
Hilary: I know. I'm writing that down right now for myself actually. Do I want more truth?
Karleen: Well, I can be really. I can be really right in step. I can be really right, but my approach is so bad.
Jen: Yeah. So I tend to get on soapboxes. That's my thing is, I tend to get on soapboxes. And then I also then have a hard time keeping those feelings down so that I am bringing the best attitude that I can. And so in my head I'm thinking OK, you need to be breathing. You need to be doing this and. In that moment, I'm not being dialed in either, though, because I'm not listening to what they're doing, so I apparently need a lot of help.
Karleen: So, when you're on that soapbox, Jennifer. What's the what's the point of being on the soapbox?
Jen: It's to prove my point.
Karleen: OK, so the agenda of the soapbox is to prove a point. Well. That's not the agenda of theirs.
Jen: Yeah.
Karleen: They're not there to say, OK, you've got the stage. I'm going to sit back, put my hands behind my head, you know, and go, go, girl, you go.
Hilary: They should have that agenda. I like that.
Karleen: You know what? If we can have that agenda, if that's what we bring to the table and say, you know what, I just want to rant. Yeah. And I just want you to sit back. Just don't say anything. Just hear it out. And I've done that too, and that can create a conflict. I'll tell you, because sometimes I've done that with my husband and I'll go. I just want to rant, and then I want you to tell me your thoughts and he'll go at the end. He'll go. I don't know and it's like, noooooo, what? And then we go into a new conflict.
Hilary: So, OK, so here's what I want from you is Speaking of that. So let's let me give you. A hypothetical situation that may be very a very real situation in my home, but we'll refer to it as a hypothetical situation.
Karleen: Are you going to role play it or? Are you going to just OK.
Hilary: Yes, that, this, this is what I want. So you know, speaking on behalf of our audience and many of them being in families being in a couple of relationship and a partner relationship. So let's say that I. I'm having an ongoing conflict with my partner and at this point maybe my partner doesn't even necessarily know because I haven't vocalized that. But I have been going for a few days, maybe a few weeks where I feel like my needs have gone unmet and I have yet to express that to them, but inside I'm just.
Karleen: Or you probably have. You just haven't cut it. Hasn't come out of your mouth.
Hilary: That's an interesting point.
Karleen: It could be in distance. It could be in apprehension. It could be in your short answers or your long answers. It could be in leaving the room before he walks in or whoever the partner is.
Hilary: Yes, yes, I've done all those things.
Karleen: Yes, me too
Hilary: So yes, I have yet to express the words vocally, but through my actions, I have definitely done all of those things. Anyway, we reached that breaking point where maybe they do something particular and I snap and it just comes spewing all out. You never do this. You never do this. I'm in charge of this and this and this so. I can see that being a potential problem for many couples where we hold in all the emotions and then they just come boiling out and then how do we respond in that moment where one person is frustrated the other person has no idea where necessarily that frustration came from. But here we are in the midst of a couple conflict.
Karleen: So what role do you want to be? Do you want to be the one who's offended or do? You want to be the one on the receiving end.
Hilary: I would like to be the one who's offended.
Karleen: So am I going to be difficult or am I going to or you want me to be a conflict resolution?
Hilary: Yes, yes.
Karleen: Got it. OK, come to the table explode if you will.
Jen: This is going to be fun.
Hilary: I am so sick of you doing nothing around this house. I am carrying the load for myself, for you, for the children, and I'm frustrated and I'm overwhelmed. I need some help and you don't ever seem to help or do anything around this place. And I'm so sick of it.
Karleen: You don't think I do anything?
Hilary: No, I'm cooking. I'm cleaning. I'm taking care of the kids. I'm driving them around everywhere. And what are you doing? This whole time you go to work and then you come home and. Then you watch TV and that's it.
Karleen: Hillary, what happened? That got this reaction. What happened?
Hilary: Well, I mean.
Karleen: Did it happen today?
Hilary: No, no, this has been going on for a long period of time. I mean like the whole last week, I swear you weren't. You weren't doing anything.
Karleen: Tell me about last week. Give me like, when did when did I do something that really annoyed you last week?
Hilary: Well, there was that one night when? There was that one night where? Where I was trying. To get all the kids to bed. And you were still playing with little Johnny and you guys were roughhousing. And I was trying to get everybody quiet. And then you're coming in and just making it worse. And so then they got to bed, like, 45 minutes late because you were just playing around with them.
Karleen: How did I make it worse?
Hilary: Because they because then they didn't want to go to bed. .
Karleen: OK.
Hilary: They just kept playing when they should have been going to bed.
Karleen: What else? Because you said last week, so. I'm assuming there's more than one thing might have done. What else?
Hilary: Well, I mean, it would be nice if every once in a while you would maybe make dinner rather than me because I'm tired. I'm tired by the end of the day. And then for me to have to cook dinner every night too. It's just too much.
Karleen: Is there is? There anything else that stands out about last week?
Hilary: I. No, it's mostly that it's mostly the bedtime and getting in and the dinner. It's just that's just such a hard time for me and I can't do it all.
Karleen: So. Hmm. So it sounds like there were two things that really kind of got under your skin the night that you, I made it difficult for kids to get in bed and then the fact that there was no dinners, is that right?
Hilary: Yeah, yeah, that was probably the biggest
Karleen: So it's so it sounds like that that was a load. Was there anything else going on last week that added to your stress level besides me?
Hilary: Well, I mean it's just hard because it's summer. And so I feel like the kids are around all the time. So the house is a mess. Usually when they're at school, I have an easier time keeping up with the, with the house cleaning and it just. Yeah. I just feel like the House is always a disaster, since they're always here.
Karleen: So you must feel really overwhelmed with school just getting out and then I'm adding to it.
Hilary: Yeah. Oh yes, 100%.
Karleen: Alright so. I guess Hilary is, I guess at the end of the day, I didn't realize, but I could see it now, but I didn't realize at the time. So I guess this week, how can I make it easier for?
Hilary: You know if. You could maybe if you could do like two of the dinners this week. I can probably take care of the rest.
Karleen: Now you know my schedule, it's tough and it's like, you know, I have late hours. What if we order in? Would you be OK with that? Maybe if I didn't cook it. But are you OK if I order in?
Hilary: I'm fine with that if you'll pick it up on the way home, that's perfect.
Karleen
OK so. Are we good?
Hilary: I hope so. Yeah, yeah.
Karleen: Is there something else? Is there something else I can do?
Hilary: I mean, let's give that a try and see if that feels better this week.
Karleen: Is there because? Is there something else you need from me? I've got dinner.
Hilary: I don't know. I guess it would just be nice if every once in a while you just told me that I was doing something good because I don't feel like I'm getting any type of appreciation here.
Karleen: Yeah, and like I said, you know, I didn't see it, but I can hear you now. So it sounds like you're kind of feeling on a boat by yourself, so I apologize for that. But I've got dinner a couple of times. And other than that, just recognizing who you are and you know what you're doing, those will work for you?
Hilary: Yeah, that will help. That'll be great.
Karleen: Let's try it for the week and then let me know how it goes.
Hilary: OK, OK.
Karleen: All right.
Hilary: Well, I don't know about you, but I feel a world better.
Karleen: Jennifer's laughing. What do you think?
Jen: That was fun. And very informative.
Karleen: So if you look, I went through all the things curiosity I asked you questions. Attitude, I wasn't fixing it for you, but I was standing in it with you. Master listening, I was asking you fill in the gaps last week because all you did was give me bullet lists of all the things that I'm short on. And so I asked you give me an example. Show me the way. And then I said, sounds like, seems like it's, it must feel like blah blah blah and you agreed. That's the response you want when you're working in conflict. Yeah. Yeah. That's what you're doing. You want to know that? You know why? Because that tells you have an opportunity to fix. You have that moment. You were just given the crystal ball of what they need and then reframing. How can I fix it? What's going to make this better now? What you find out in that? Is it you watched or for those that aren't, can't see if you watched. She puts her head down now this is just conflict stuff coming up. OK, so she puts her head down and it's because she doesn't know her answer yet. So she had to put her head down to think what's going to make it right. You will get that a lot when you start using the skills to help in conflict resolution. When you start using those skills, you find out when it comes to saying, hey, what's going to fix this?
Most of the time they have no answer. So therefore you will always lose. You've got to understand that. In conflict, if they have no answer and you cannot talk them through what their answer looks like, or you can't help them if you don't give them enough space to see, they have no answer. Does that make sense? Then there's no way to solve it, and so had you not come up with something Hilary, I would have held because that's what attitude is. Attitude is attitude is holding, not fixing. So, I would have held and I would have. You would have had to have gone so you would have gone a couple different ways, which you, the way you went was solutions you came up with. Yeah. Can you maybe do this? And it was like, look, you know, can you do that? I don't know. Or you're going to go to another direction of, I don't know. I don't. I don't even want to talk to you anymore. You're gonna do that? That's another option that we have, but it will be anything but allowing the room to find out. I don't have an answer. And that's what that space allows. It allows to find out. Does that person know what they want? Now when you get that beautiful vulnerability. That's when you very tenderly hold the conversation. And that's when we go. So it doesn't seem like you have an answer now. I have done it in my world going oh, so you don't have an answer right to make it to make the situation worse. But in that moment, you can if it's. If you've come through everything in that moment, you get an opportunity to go. Well. Here are some ideas. In that mode, but you cannot go there. Until everybody in the room knows the situation. And you can't say. Because if you say it, then you're blaming, right? And so then you can't say so. So because like I just showed the example of, well, you don't have anything. Well, great. So you're all mad and you don't have anything. I just created more situation, more negative situation. Where if I go, what are you, you know, what's going to make it better? If you had said, I don't know well. Let's think about it. What does it need to look like for you. And you keep walking and you keep walking until they either recognize they don't have something, and once you get, they get frustrated enough you can say. I want to help but I can't. If you don't know what's going to fix it, this is your pain. This is your hurt. I'm trying to work it. So let me know.
I'll tell you. I get I. So I was consulting with him a husband in his marriage. And they are they are in. The brink of divorce or they were. They're not anymore, but one of the things is, is that he had done some naughty things in his relationship that made her question his where he was at. Trust became an issue. And so I said, you know, you have to realize there's frustration and she's just lashing the frustration. She's not verbalizing. So anyway, they went head to head on in a situation and I said you have to you have to realize when you lose trust that everything from here on out is fueled with that much more gas. And so you need to give her the space to have a thing. So he went to the reframe. He worked it. Then he went to the reframe. What can I do? And she says, I don't know. You've never allowed me to talk. Like, yeah, I don't know. And he said. Well, I'm here. Let me know when you come up with it. And she was left on her own in that. And so she went back. And she had to come up with it. And therein lies her conflict. Did he do something wrong? Yes. Did he fuel a negativity in their relationship? Yes. But she also took that that whole, you know, self-righteous. I did it all right. So I therefore, I get to do this and this and this. And by the way, I want us to get out of this bad stuff, but I have no idea what's going to satisfy that. So then she had to figure it out, and she ended up coming back. And then they he's done this many times now in their relationship, but in a matter of. I think that course is 12 weeks and. In a matter of like 4 weeks, she came back and she goes, Oh my gosh, who are you? You're. You are so amazing. Isn't that when you've lost trust, you need these little steps, these little wins. And that's how you get there. So you and I just role played it. Was so fun. Thank you. Very good.
Hilary: I feel like we need a little Karleen in each and every one of our pockets guys. This is amazing. But I love how you're making us feel empowered, though, to give us the skills that we need to be better at resolving and identifying, and oftentimes even embracing, that we can do conflict. That it's part of our lives.
Karleen: They can't. You did. You realize you did. You started as a child. You knew how to do conflict. This is how. It looks three years old. Why you mad? Why are you mad? Yeah, you're mad. That's curiosity, that is curiosity. And what did we do with it? What did we do when? Our little ones came to us and said. Why are you mad? Tell me what we might do.
Hilary: We were very willing to tell them. Well, Momma's having a really. Hard day, sweetie.
Karleen: If we're offended if it's a trust issue that between us and our spouse.
Hilary: Well, I think.
Karleen: Or is that what we're going to tell that little 3 year old, what are we going to do?
Hilary; I mean, if there's a trust issue there, I'm going to, for me, I'm going to try to keep a wall up or and sometimes I am the unfortunate I'm fine person, right? Yes. Nothing wrong. I'm fine. I got this.
Karleen: Exactly. Yes. This. Yes. So guess what? What did you just teach that little three-year old. Your feelings and understanding of curiosity are wrong. Yeah. And then you were taught that over and over and over again. What if instead we said it's a bad day? Mommy is sad. That's all. That's all they can handle. I had one mom who would say I'm sad and she would be crying and she would tell me. So that's just Mom things she would tell me. I love it when he comes and hugs me. My little boy. I love that. Don't we love that? It's so true. But it it's so wrong. Can I just tell you it is so wrong. Do you know what we've done? We've passed our pain on to our children and they are now responsible to make us feel good. So she would cry and he would come and hug her. Mom, you're so sad. You're so sad. And so when I was coaching her and I would say that's not his to hold. Why are you making him? He wants to go play with toys. Why are you doing that to him? And she'd say, but I love his hugs and I should be able to express myself openly in front of my children. Yes, within range of what 3 year old emotions can manage. You could simply say I'm really sad. Clean it up. And not make it his go. Talk to your trusted girlfriend. Go talk to somebody that can understand this. That's confidential, but don't give it to a child. And then when he nails you on it again, you say no. I'm fine. You're wrong. I'm fine. So, I mean, do this is just utter confusion. So. Yes, hopefully you feel empowered, but you have it already. We've just been patterned to forget about it. So when kids deal with conflict, they go all in. Think about it. You're mad at them. You get angry. You slap their hand. Whatever you do right? And then how fast are they to come back around? So fast, right? Right. They're all in. They're all in on that conflict. OK, you're mad at me. I did wrong. You're punishing me now. You want me to love and you want to love me? I'm in. I'm so here. I want it. I'll give it to you. These are all the skill sets that the high level uses. We are all in. We feel it. Now we temper we can temper, but we feel it just like a child, tempers when he wants to cry and he goes and he does it and he fights it back. You know, they fight it back, they're tempering, they're learning that. And instead of letting them build that skill. We kill the skill. And then we try and so now I'm saying regroup. Let's just regroup. Let's course correct. You got it. You know it. You know the skill and go use it. Go use that. If you use, if you do nothing more. Then exercise curiosity and learning. You will learn so much more. About other people. Yeah. Yeah, so.
Hilary: I feel like we need a Part 2 here, my dear, because I feel like now we're entering into this into this road of like helping our kids still have conflict and emotions. And I'm. We need more.
Karleen: That's a whole bag of stuff, right? Yeah, we should do it. We should do it. And we could talk about the book that I wrote, The Confident Teen. We could talk about that if you'd.
Hilary: Exactly. That's why like we need a part too.
Karleen: Like, but yeah, I'm so here for it.
Hilary: Well, in the meantime, give us information so I know that there are many people that are listening that are thinking. I would love to utilize her services. I would love to take her courses. How can we access some of these resources that you offer?
Karleen: If you go. To my website Karleenesavage.com and there's a sign up and I teach these courses for insanely cheap insane, insane. But I teach these courses of how you can do it. It's a three day intensive, so it's six hours for three days, 6 hours a day so that you can get the skills down. So if you do that, you can register like that. If you go to karlenesavage.com/parents. With an S you can get the digital download. My book, The Confident Teen blueprint which talks about some of this stuff as well, conflict building, but it's basically what I did with my seven children who are now all adults. What I've done with about a dozen other teens in my home and to have them all leave, well, a lot of them came because of they had issues and they left with confidence. So. Yeah.
Hilary: Thank you so much for providing that for free. That is an amazing resource we can give.
Karleen: Absolutely. Absolutely happy to.
Hilary: OK, perfect. Yep. I'm committed to this part too, so. We will schedule. That for a different day, but thank you for all this information you've given us today, I love this. Like I said, I have my little list of notes for myself that I need to remember, so this is perfect.
Karleen: Just remember curiosity, just remember curiosity.
Hilary: I love it. I actually have that circled in big like both because when you said that I thought, OK, that's my thing. So yes, it's circled on the page.
Karleen: Yay.
Jen: Thank you so much for joining us. I mean, I have learned a lot. I have a lot to learn in this area. So I'm excited for Part 2. And so I think curiosity, I love that that we just need to. Start with that. And practice it, I mean it's not going to come naturally. It's going to take time to figure that out. And I hope that those that are listening will be kind and patient with themselves as they are learning these skills. We thank you for listening and we will be back next week.
Thank you for listening to the Parents Place Podcast, if you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly - The Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is thefamilyplaceutah.org. If you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes. We'd love to see you. There.
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