Have you heard the term, Oppositional Defiance Disorder? It's been popping up more and more over the past years when it comes to talking about big behavioral struggles. Katie Brown, Assistant Professor at Utah State University, and co-director of behavior support services, is here to give us some help. Whether you have a child that has an O.D.D. diagnosis, you THINK your child might have O.D.D., or if you just listen to podcasts while doing chores, you will learn something great from our guest.
Jen and Hilary chat with Katie about diagnosis, definitions, discipline tips, and gaining an overall understanding of what O.D.D. is and what it looks like.
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Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen.
Hilary: Alright, welcome to our podcast today guys. We're excited to have you here. We have a special guest with us today, Katie Brown. And I'll be honest, I'm real excited for this. I really am. So as your viewers know, if you're regular viewers listeners, Jen and I have both taught Parenting education for many years. At this point, we've also done some in home parenting education as well, too. As part of that process. And this is an area that I feel like as an educator, you get a lot of questions about how to best handle my child, who has oppositional defiant disorder, and it's hard because oftentimes these parents are the parents that kind of are, at their wits end and are the ones that tend to say to us. We've done everything, nothing works. Help me out, please.
Jen: There's so many times. Yeah, there's so many times where they say ohh, you know you're asking a parent. Does your child have any diagnosis and things like that? And they're like, ODD, and inside. I'm just like, oh, no, that's so hard.
Hilary: And it's hard. It is. It's hard as a parent, I think it's hard as an educator to come up with some skills and techniques that will work for them and so that's why we have you here, my dear.
Jen: You're going to educate us
Katie: Well, thanks for having me.
Hilary: So let me first turn it over to you, Katie, and you can tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do and then we'll dive into the topic itself. Go ahead.
Katie: Great, great. Well, my name is Katie Brown. I'm an assistant professor up at Utah State University. I'm also Co director of the Behavior Support Services Clinic. That's up there in their Sorenson center. And our clinic specializes in assessing and treating challenging behaviors of individuals who both have behavior disorders as well as those who may have intellectual or developmental disabilities. I did all of my graduate training in the state of Nebraska at the University of Nebraska, Omaha and University of Nebraska Medical Center. That's where I got my Masters and my PhD. Perhaps not surprising, I specialize in the assessment and treatments for problem behavior, and then I'm currently a licensed behavior analyst and a licensed clinical mental health counselor in the state of Utah.
Hilary: OK.
Jen: Those sounds so hard. Just thinking, I just don't. I'm just thinking of hard behaviors all day long.
Hilary: But we're so glad we have individuals like you in our community that we can turn to yes, during those times where we're. Like there's nothing? Yes, there's nothing that we can do.
Jen: Like I'm not the right person for you, but now I know I know where I can send them.
Hilary : And the right person is Katie
Katie: That right, you know the fun part of my job is no day is the same. You may see the same kid every day, but they're going to throw something new every day.
Hilary : That's there you go.
Jen: Figuratively or literally.
Katie: Exactly.
Hilary: You know, we've joked before in this podcast that that is both the blessing and the curse of parenting is that every child is different and there is not a one and done prescription on how to help a child because what will work for one kid will definitely not work for another. And so it's nice. This idea of constantly experimenting and evaluating and switching things that aren't working and the nature of the beast.
Katie: Yeah that’s 100% what we do so.
Jen: That’s parenting in a nutshell.
Hilary: We love it and that's why we pull our hair out at the same time. So let's start at the beginning. So, we mentioned Oppositional Defiant Disorder, which oftentimes is referred to as ODD. So, tell us a little bit about what this is. Maybe signs associated with it, Go ahead.
Katie: So ODD is generally a pattern of angry, defiant, or irritable behavior that lasts for at least six months. So if you have a child with odd, you might see signs like them losing their temper easily, being angry, resentful, arguing with authority figures. Actively define rules or requests that are asked of them, deliberately annoying others, or even blaming others for their mistakes. Now it's worth saying here, if we're being honest, we all have days when some of these things might apply to us..
Hilary: Yeah. I’m like check and double check.
Katie: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like we have moments when we become angry or irritable with our loved ones. And so what makes these behaviors really rise to this level of oppositional defiant disorder is the frequency and the intensity of the behaviors. And those frequency and intensity are reaching this threshold that we wouldn't predict for a child that's that age or that developmental level. The other key pieces that those behaviors are negatively impacting that individual being successful. So perhaps they're having a hard time making or maintaining relationships being successful at school, being able to integrate into some of those community settings. Those would all be some of the signs that again, this has reached that threshold. Hmm.
Hilary: I appreciate the fact that we kind of have this. You mentioned that six month you know over a period of time because I think you're right, there's gonna be times where we have bad days. There's gonna be times where kids have bad days and there's also going to be times in a child's. Life where maybe they're going through a transition and the reality is, is they may not be acting their yourself right during that time frame. But I think it's important for parents to understand that this isn't just they've been acting like a beast for the past week. Like this is a continual recurring behavior.
Jen: Yeah. The transitions you already always have that you know they revert to old behaviors, but once they get into the flow of things, they're. It doesn't. That's not an issue for them anymore in that six month period of time, those kids that are in transition will have already come back to where they're at before that, six months is up.
Hilary: So I'm curious on because I'm thinking about kids and I'm thinking about typical development and with a lot of younger kids who quite haven't obtained all of their language. You know, the vocabulary to speak their feelings and being able to process that it comes across as aggression. So, when is this usually diagnosed? Is there typical age when we tend to diagnose kids with ODD?
Katie: Yes. There's not like a hard. This is the age, but you tend to see it you know in early childhood in general. That's where you're probably going to start seeing perhaps the diagnosis emerged.
Hilary: OK. And statistically speaking, do we tend to see? More males than females. Is there a pattern at all?
Katie: We statistically do see more males than more males and often kind of the way the child presents might vary based on whether or not it's a male or female. Those are things going to mental health professional who has some specialty and that they're really going to be able to pick up on some of those differences perhaps.
Hilary: Hmm. OK. And I've met a lot of families and worked with a lot of children that have kind of had a multi diagnosis. ODD as well as ADHD or maybe even autism. Do you tend to see it linked to other diagnosis as well too?
Katie: Yeah. So we do sometimes see that ADHD and ODD go hand in hand so. What this means is that certain percentage of individuals. That have ADHD will also have a diagnosis of ODD. And when we think about these diagnosis you kind of already hit on it. They have this underlying theme which is opposition. So, with ADHD we often see opposition to instructions or activities that require that individual to engage in an activity that has sustained effort or sustained attention. And those often tend to be the situations where we see some of that opposition. Whereas with oppositional defiant disorder. You tend to see that they're oppositional most of the time, regardless of what of what's really being asked in the context, but because oppositional defiant oppositional behavior is kind of this underlying theme of several childhood disorders like ADHD as well as autism. It's important to again work with a mental health professional who can help you really sort out. Is it one of these? Or perhaps you have several kind of Co existing presentations?
Hilary: Mm-hmm. OK. I mean in our office we talk a lot about trauma. We're a we're a trauma informed center, a lot of what we do, you know our trauma informed techniques. Do you see trauma play a role in this as well?
Katie: I mean, you guys know, you know, being a trauma and sometimes or like trauma isn't one-dimensional. And so this is such a kind of like complex situation. But what we do know is that certain social and environmental and interpersonal factors can. Be tied to ODD. So for social factors, things like unstable home conditions, where there might be a succession of different caregivers, or unstable economic conditions, those things can be tied to oppositional defiant disorder. Environmental variables like harsh or inconsistent or neglectful parenting can be tied to oppositional defiant disorder and then interpersonally for that individual. If they experience, you know, kind of some direct trauma, something like physical abuse, those things can lead to difficulties regulating your emotions and behaviors. So yeah, it's kind of multifaceted.
Hilary: OK. Is this a fairly new diagnosis or has this been around just for a while? I'm just thinking about kind of how the world of autism has they've shifted and how they view it and how they diagnose. I mean, have you seen that?
Katie: Yeah so, well I’m, you know, I'm gonna call myself young.
Hilary: You are young!
Katie: I have only been practicing for 10 years, so I speak within my 10 years of experience.
Hilary: Yes, yes.
Katie: I think one thing that's really interesting is there is a lot of research that's looking at the potential genetic contributions to disorders like this and how some disorders like oppositional defiant disorder are tied to other conditions that we know are genetic, like ADHD. And so as we see other conditions start to increase like ADHD. Are you going to see kind of this code increasing these other disorders. And so I think that's an area that a lot of people are kind of looking at.
Hilary: OK, I'm just I appreciate the fact that we are starting to learn more about these different diagnosis. Because I can remember. Like I said I don think I am that old either, but I can still remember back in elementary school, we didn't have we didn't have this vocabulary. We didn't have these words. And so when you'd see a child that was struggling with, you know, focusing in class or focusing on making friends. Or an aggressive child, you just called them a hard kid. They were a really hard kid, you know, and everybody knew who the hard kid was. And usually the answer to the hard kid was that they had to sit in the back of the class, away from everybody else. And so I love the fact that we're exploring. These different areas to say here's why. Here's what we can do. You know, here's the things that help. Here's the things that don't.
Katie: Right.
Jen: I'm trying to think back to the first family I worked with, it's probably been 15 years ago that I worked with this family and he that it was the first time I ever heard of ODD and I went to the therapist in the office and said, what is this? I don't know what this is. And she explained it to me. But. It was super hard because of the fact that the techniques that I had been taught and trained and the curriculums we use and whatnot, it was like. It wasn't helping at all, and this was middle class family, two parent household. If I remember right, there was no abuse and so I had no idea on what to do. And so I'm so glad that this has gone further and we can have some information now of what to.
Katie: Do I think in general as our culture in the last several decades has started to shift away from kind of the stigma of mental or behavioral health concerns. You start to see this greater recognition and what once would have been the naughty kid who is now. You know, there's now a recognition of there's some behavioral health concern, so.
Jen: There's a reason.
Katie : Yeah. And so I think you know that part of that prevalence problem is, is this greater awareness and greater understanding and acceptance, you know, versus a greater prevalence.
Hilary: Yeah. So I think that's where we want to focus our time on is kind of what, what works with these kids. But before we dive into that, you know you mentioned some of these signs. You mentioned that this is kind of a reoccurring problem throughout their day, not necessarily pinpointing one particular topic. If there is a parent out there that's like, yes, yes and definitely yes. Where's the first step that they should go to maybe potentially look at seeing if this is, you know, getting that diagnosis.
Katie: So be careful with Doctor, Doctor Google. The website is like our worst enemy, me and our best friends sometimes. So I think you got a good first step would be touching base with your child's pediatrician. They're gonna be a reliable source to help you kind of discern whether or not you should seek professional input and they also probably are going to be a really. Kind of good gatekeeper to help direct you to some good community resources in your area,
Hilary: OK, because I'm assuming we can't just walk up, let's say to the university. Like would you need? A referral for a process like. That how would that work?
Katie: No. Most, most mental health professionals you would need to refer or something like that. You would be able to just make an appointment to get an evaluation.
Hilary: OK, perfect. But given the fact that most parents know their pediatrician and know them. That's probably the most comfortable first step exactly.
Katie: Yeah. Yeah, I think because you have a relationship and if you're kind of, you know, on the fence, you're wondering that might be kind of a good, reliable source. If you're that parent and you're like, there is no question like. Check the box, check the box then yeah. Go ahead and find a mental health provider in your area and make an appointment.
Hilary: OK. And I'm assuming that process I and this might be specific to our area versus outside areas. Through that process, would there be a fee applied. To that, is there a long time frame a waiting list, all the things that parents are concerned you?
Katie: My answer is going to be super gray. It depends on your insurance company to have insurance what their requirements are. It also can really vary based on the area. So often insurance companies have contracts with certain providers that make them in network out of network. So then like for wait list are the providers that are in network with your insurance company. Did they have long wait lists and so all of that unfortunately can be really challenging to kind of navigate and vary quite a bit depending on the area.
Hilary: OK. And that's OK. I think the key, the first step for parents is just to understand to find that site, you know, start with that pediatrician or if you do know. You know where to go start there because you guys are the experts. You know the logistics when it comes to insurance and providers, and we don't necessarily need to have all those answers because there will be people there that those answers for us.
Katie: No. Yep. Yep. When you call someone, you just make sure you ask and there will be someone there to help kind of navigate you through that insurance process.
Hilary: OK, perfect. Then let's dive into those helpful techniques for parents. Ahat tends to work and what doesn't. Work that we should avoid.
Katie: Yeah so. One of the things that I think in general you tend to hear as a recommendation is minimizing attention for kind of the negative behaviors on what to behaviors that you don't want. And I think in general for most in those behaviors. That is a wonderful recommendation, right? So you're basically ensuring that the child is only getting attention for the things that you want to see more and not getting into? A positive feedback for the behaviors. That you don't want to see more of. With individuals of oppositional defiant disorder, these behaviors can rise to this threshold of being too big or too risky to use. A strategy like minimizing their attention for them. And so, if the family is in a therapeutic relationship with a provider, the best course of action is going to be to follow whatever that provider has individualized for that child and the family. But let's say for. Example a family has yet to get into one of those therapeutic relationships. There are some general recommendations that I might make in those situations. So, first parents should consider using a give in early and often technique. Say that again you want to give in early and often and what I mean. By this is, there's often early warning signs before those big behaviors, and those warning signs might vary based on your kid, but you might see things like yelling or defiance or some more minor forms of palm behavior. And so using that give in early and often technique would mean that you're going to go ahead and give in to those behaviors. When they're at that lower level as a way to prevent them from escalating up to those big risky behaviors. And the given often part of it is just meaning that. You're going to. Use that really consistency so consistently. So if there's ten opportunities to use it, you want to go ahead and use it 10 out of 10 times again, because that's going to help you. Kind of prevent from getting up to that really high, risky or dangerous behavior. The next thing I strongly encourage family is families is if you haven't already developed a behavior crisis plan. Go ahead and develop one. This varies what this might look like, but in general, things that families might want to consider are what local resources are available to help them. So if the child does escalate to a point that the caregiver is concerned about the child safety, maybe other family member safety or other people who are in the vicinities safety. What's going to be your go to for that local emergency resource? It could be a local mental health provider, it could be your local emergency room. It could be the Police Department who is going to be there to kind of help you in this situation. The other thing families might consider is kind of looking at the greater family dynamic. And so if you are a parent and you have multiple children, so how are you going to navigate helping that child that's having? A behavior crisis. While also being able to kind of separate your other children to keep them safe and who else might need to be called in to health care for those children. The last thing that I would say is if you have any concern about your child engaging in aggression and using any sort of weapon that they could get access to in the home, go ahead and remove those weapons from the home if you can or make sure they're locked up.
Jen: I think of that given in in often. Hey, I always talk to parents about catching the behavior when it's small and yes, that requires you to be paying attention a lot. So what your kids are doing?
Hilary: Exactly. Maybe feel a little bit more vigilant than we tend to be
Jen: But I always refer it to the game on the price is right with the little Swiss guy going up the mountain, and then he falls off and they talk about how all in this area we have time to stop that drop off, yeah. And that's where we need to pay the closest attention, because we don't want them to drop off the side of the mountain. The big behavior and so really, paying attention being that feelings detective. Of I see when you have this behavior, I see this in your body. Your words, whatever it may be that I know this is going to start to increase. It's really being attentive.
Hilary: So, I want you to expound on that a little bit more. Because I can envision a lot of parents listening and saying, wait, hold on. I'm giving in to negative behaviors? So can you give us maybe an example of what that might look like?
Katie: Yeah. So and that's exactly it, right. Like it's there's parents that are listening to this and thinking you want me to do what? That that you're right. Like so again this give in early and given often technique is to prevent escalation of the severe behavior. This isn't going to be a long-term therapy technique and help you know your child learn the skills that they need to really kind of advance and the areas they need. To this is. Really just I would consider it like a safety procedure. Your goal is to optimize your child safety and the safety of those around your child and so chances are, once you maybe get into a therapeutic relationship or the child gets into that therapeutic relationship, that provider might push on it, right? So if we go back to the now you, the little man going, going up, they the provider might have you guys go all the way up all the way up all the way. But in a controlled setting, you're gonna be able to kind of tip the little man over the edge in a way that's safe for everybody. And so it's not that the child's always gonna stay in this kind of space. So the caregiver is always gonna have to stay in this space where you're constantly giving in, see, see it as really kind of the safety emergency Band-Aid to shut this behavior down from getting to a point that someone's going to get hurt.
Hilary: OK. So we're not necessarily the envisioning parents saying you can do whatever you want because I don't want to deal with that. And using that as our as our tool, forever and always.
Katie: Correct, no.
Hilary: Alright, I think that's important. Yeah, for parents to be like. Wait a second.
Jen: I am supposed to just give in and let them just take control of the roost.
Katie: Yes. No.
Hilary: So I'm assuming you would make this suggestion for anyone that has a child with ODD that they do work with a mental health expert. I mean, is this something that we can maneuver on our own, or should we always have that as a resource to us?
Katie: Yes. In general, it's gonna be really, really beneficial. So for individuals who maybe have more mild to moderate forms of oppositional defiant disorder, they might kind of grow out of it, so to speak, as they age. But for individuals who have more severe forms of oppositional defiant disorder, not working with the therapist and kind of intervening is likely just to kind of evolve into other serious concerns like anxiety or depression or conduct disorder. And so it's always a good kind of safe option to go ahead, connect with a mental health professional. They can help you kind of determine severity as well as if there are additional supports that are needed.
Hilary: You said a word that I think for a lot of parents is maybe a magic word and that is or a magic phrase and you mentioned that sometimes they grow out of it. Talk about that a little bit.
Katie: Yeah. So really this is just with the individuals have more mild to moderate forms. So typically, more mild to moderate means that it's really isolated to one setting. OK and so it's possible. Not every kid who has a more mild to moderate form of oppositional defiant disorder is going to grow out of it. But it's possible that again, if it's isolated to one setting, kind of one really specific scenario that they might, you know, kind of naturally figure out along the way the skills that they need that are going to help to decrease the problematic behaviors, and they're going to use those more adaptive or functional skills, but it's also a chance that they might not. And so again, when in doubt, you know, just connecting with someone who can really help you determine what that, what that support has to look like.
Hilary: Can you give us some typical you mentioned in certain settings. Can you give us like just some example of what those setting might be?
Katie: Yeah. So for example, if you if there's a child who only presents, you know, kind of all the signs and symptoms we talked about earlier with oppositional defiant disorder and the caregivers only ever see in the home, the school doesn't see. Community. Agencies don't see it. They're really kind of tells us providers like, there's something really kind of unique about the home setting that's going on. These behaviors aren't pervasive. They're not kind of all across the kids day, regardless of who they're where they're at. There's really kind of something unique to the home here, so let's dig in and figure out what's unique about this situation and how we treat that.
Hilary: OK, so let's talk about treatment. And are we talking behavioral treatments? Are we talking potential medications? What does that look like for most individuals?
Katie: Yeah. So one thing that is really important to know is that. Oppositional defiant disorder is a title or label. It's useful in being able to allow us to communicate to other people, you know, fairly quickly the type of behaviors that the individual might engage in. And really, kind of what's preventing them from becoming their most successful version of themselves. But it is. It's treatable. It's with intervention. You would expect that those behaviors would go down and that that title or the label would no longer be appropriate. There really isn't a one size fits all intervention for oppositional defiant disorder. Treatment forms often take the form of parent behavior management training. Could be school based interventions, individual child therapy or family child therapy.
Hilary: OK. For our parent, that's saying let's just get a medication that's not necessarily the cure all for.
Katie: Yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't know of any research that says that. You know there's. Here's this magic. Pill. You're right. I think if there was like every parent in the world would be line up
Hilary: Like sold, I'm done.
Katie: Yeah. So, no, I think. Again, working with the mental health professionals there, there's concern that perhaps you know, for example. If you have a child who has ADHD and ODD and they're not on a medication. The mental health professional is likely to refer you over to someone who can prescribe a medication or do an assessment for medication to kind of help with some of those other symptoms. And so some of the complexity in there, you might have a child with ODD who ends up on a medication and that's good. And that's OK you might have some that aren't.
Hilary: Yeah. So I have the yodeler still in my head Jen. I have the visual and I'm thinking, you know, as parents are one of our roles and responsibilities is to be that that vigilant parent be that attentive parent so that we can prevent some of that. But I'm thinking in the school setting where you have a teacher that has thirty students and may not be able to be that attentive. Let's talk about what, what this could potentially look like in a school setting and are there things that that help things that you can suggest to teachers, things that teachers already are doing that should be implemented in that environment?
Katie: Good question. So one key piece in the treatment and management of obsessional defining disorder is positive reinforcement. And so if you know we're kind of regardless of where this kid is at, that's going to be a really big key piece at for parents that are kind of navigating this, again depending on the, the, the child and kind of their unique needs and supports, IEPs and 504 plans can be a great way to kind of establish what it is that the child could benefit from support wise in the school. And that whole process can be overwhelming and intimidating. Like, you know, you said, like at a table with like 8 people and you're like, I don't understand what we're talking about. And I have to sign this paper. And so there are some really great local resources and state resources for families to just, like, call, ask questions. I don't understand this. You know, how do I navigate this process and most of them are free too, which is wonderful.
Hilary: OK. Oftentimes, do they find that we can provide them with an additional aid? Does that help?
Katie: So one-on-one, aides are always really helpful kind of regardless of the support need. It just really depends on what the school's policies are and that the individual child, OK, rein a positive reinforcement is going to be is going to be the key. And so making sure that they have frequent opportunities to contact positive reinforcement
Jen: And is specific versus general positive reinforcement important?
Katie: So in general we always say use descriptive. Be specific. It's not going to hurt. Are there some kids that you know? I've had plenty of patients in my time. Like we're that's an amazing job the way you did this and this and this. And they're like they look at me and, like, shut up. Right. Like they didn't like that. And so then it's like, OK, I need to back off and. And so in general, start with the script of it's great. It shows the kid that you're paying attention. You see them, you know exactly what they did. Watch for signs that they don't like that. That was too much that was over. The top and then you can kind of scale it back.
Hilary: One of the hardest things. I think for myself, for any parent out there is. The eyes of other parents. The stigma, right. And so I'm thinking, I'm thinking going back to that first technique of the given early and often and I can see these parents you know. Having the plan set out but then also having other parents look at them and say what, what are you doing, you know, don't let them have that. This is where the problem lies is you. And so I can see that being a huge deal with this. Do you notice that? And what can parents do?
Katie: Yeah, yeah. So this wouldn't be takeaways if I had a take away for a parent. So. Nobody understands what it's like to parent an oppositional and defiant child. Yeah, until you have one. The feelings of exhaustion, isolation, guilt, sadness. They can be overwhelming. So often I hear parents say things like I feel like a bad mom. I feel like a bad dad. I fail as a parent or I just can't do this anymore like I'm at the end of my rope. So you know, if you are a parent and you are in that place, just know that you're not alone. And the things that we tell ourselves or that people are telling us they are not true and they are not helpful and so.
Jen: And behind their door, there is yuckiness too.
Katie: Yes. So parenting right is arguably one of the hardest things that we do as adults, and even more so if you're a parent or a child who needs extra support and need. So the first thing that I always like to tell parents is, you know, you walk on this journey right next to your child. And as you walk on this journey next to your child, find a support network. Find some self-care activities that can help you navigate this journey because you're on it too. You're right there alongside them, so it's not a weakness to ask for help and take care of yourself. And more often than not it's a necessity.
Hilary: Well, especially when you refer to that safety plan where there might be times where you know I need to take this child, this place, which means that a different adult is going to need to intervene. And so we need those adults, those adults that we trust that know our situation and know us and know our child and have our best interests in mind.
Jen: Just thinking we need to create a T-shirt that says I’m trying my best” if you can do better I'll let you have an have it for a night.
Hilary: Do parents tend to find that with, with, with teachers, with coaches as well to that same stigma? Or or is it better?
Katie: I think the signal that I think it depends on you know the end of the day, we're all human and humans who have come in contact with other humans on this path tend to have more compassion and understanding. And so again, I think just being able to kind of like even we're we are our own harshest critics and our own thoughts and criticism gets at us and so just kind of like repeating. Like. This is this is not true, and this is not helpful. Uh, it's much easier said than done.
Hilary: One of the hardest situations that I think both you and I have been, and I'm speaking on behalf of you right now, but in education realm is, is when we do have a child that has gotten to that aggression level where either they're hurting themselves, maybe potentially hurting somebody else. Maybe destroying property. When it gets to that point, which, I'm assuming it does quite often. With a child with ODD besides having like that, obviously having that safety plan in action, are there any steps that we should take to ensure the safety of our child, but us all of ourselves?
Katie: Yeah. So I think I think the the biggest thing is going to be looking at what type of environment you need to create for safety. And so you know, if you have a a child who's escalated like don't bring them into the kitchen where they're sharp objects. Right so often like you know, if you're looking for a safe space in your own home, I think it's spaces that aren't going to have a lot of items that can be used as weapons or could be destroyed or thrown, and that really kind of give this individual their own space, if that's all possible without having other children or students around.
Hilary: OK, that's a great suggestion. Is knowing kind of coming up with your pre plan of like where? That spot needs to be within our own home. If that is the case, and with the school setting can we advocate on behalf of something like that in the school too?
Katie: It depends on the school. So I think with schools the kind of the overarching thing is the teachers responsibility is to be there and to teach and to provide an education. And you know when you've got a. A student or students that have behavior concerns that can be kind of interfering and so ultimately I think the question between parents and between the school needs to be what supports can we put in place? Because ultimately even the student with the behavior concern has a right to learn. And so we need to find what supports need to be put into place to help this learner stay in the classroom, where they can learn and be successful without compromising the other students ability to be safer to learn. And what that looks like is going to vary widely based on the resources that the school has. But. Every learner, including the child, with the behavior concerns, has the right to learn, and so we have to find some type of compromise and middle ground for kind of what that looks like and what support can help us.
Jen: I'm wondering. I'm trying to think. Of because I worked. At a. School right after I got out of college as a resource teacher. Or the refocused teacher, and that's where they would bring all of the hard kids was down in my room of. Here you go.
Katie: Yeah, it can very. It can vary so widely, kids. Could end up in resource rooms. They could end up kind of in separate spaces. They could end up in. The principal's office and. So it can. It can really vary. I think one thing that even in the last 10 years I think we see a much greater understanding even within educational systems is the need for behavior specialists. And so I think I think that's really promising. And I think that you'll continue to see that both in the next 5-10 years will be greater awareness and more supports for kids that need it in school.
Hilary: Ohh that's awesome. OK. So you mentioned your the take away of kind of debunking that stigma and how parents can help to combat that. Any other final takeaways you would offer to parents?
Katie: Yeah. So. Another thing I think I would encourage parents who have a child diagnosed with odd is to increase their awareness on their own emotions and how their emotions could be influencing how they respond to their child. So every parent, all of us have emotions to these big behaviors, right? Guilt, anger, sadness, exhaustion. These emotions in and of themselves. They're not a bad thing, right? But it's important for us to keep an eye out on how our emotions may be influencing how we respond or what type of parenting strategies we pick when we're coming from these emotional spaces. So, for example, when you're feeling mad, is your parenting strategy to get loud and argue back and try to take control and to win the argument that's happening in the house versus if you feel exhausted and you're at the end of your rope. Do you avoid actively engaging with your child, just to get through the day, right, just to get through the day. So, I challenge parents just to start increasing your awareness of your own emotions in these big moments and how these emotions are either moving you closer to what you want in that relationship with your child, or moving you farther away from them. I think the last big take away that I would have is. Don't forget to praise and reward your child for the things that they are doing well. As I mentioned earlier, positive reinforcement, is the key in the treatment of ODD. And management of ODD. So more so than ever. You want to be very generous and rich with the amount of positive reinforcement. That you do. These rewards can be things like excited positive praise that. We talked about they could be new toys or activities that they're. I mean, they can also just be a reinvention of normal daily activities, right? So this could be the kid gets to build a Fort to sleep in tonight instead of having to sleep in the bed. Or it could be getting to stay up an extra hour instead of going to bed, or an extra 15 to 30 minutes on their favorite electronic. All of those things. Don't take a lot of time. They're not really money intensive so that those can work as rewards. Ultimately, you just want to find out what is your child motivated to earn and make sure that they get lots of that praise and access to that fun thing for the behaviors that you do want. Even If it's just a tiny little glimpse of the behavior you want. Take it and reward it, and then you'll see more of it in the future.
Jen: What happens when you have that parent that says my child is not motivated by anything? They don't care about anything?
Hilary: Yes we have heard that one as well
Katie: Yeah. So this is like a hallmark of oppositional defiant disorder. We see this all the time in the clinic where, you know, we're trying to find something that that, that, that one individual is really motivated. For and, they're like, I know what you're up to, and I don't like anything. I'm not gonna engage with anything as a parent. Call the bluff, even if they're not gonna watch if they're not going to tell you. Watch. What do they do spending their time? When they're free activity time that they have after dinner and see what they're doing and you might see that as you know, let's say. You're like, oh, you can earn extra this. For you know, some of these behaviors, they might push back on you, right? That's part of the opposition, they might say. I don't care. I don't. I'm not motivated for that. That's OK. Just look for kind of new unique things. Don't engage in kind of the argument with the opposition. Just look for new unique things that you think they are right. Like as mom dad. You're the expert on. It could be certain food items that are really fun, certain little outings that are really fun. It could be that they get to, you know, be the boss for 30 minutes. Within reason. I mean, you can kind of set those boundaries, but maybe they get to be the boss and you know, Mom and Dad have to jump around and look goofy and you know make fools of themselves and maybe that's really rewarding.
Jen: Remember in that refocus room I had a boy come down, he would never do his math for his teacher. And I said, well, I asked, well, what motivates him? And he's like, well, nothing really motivates him said. OK. So we sat down in my. Little kind of like this room. And I had a jar of peanuts on my desk. And he's like. Just to say no. Never mind. Yeah, yeah. But you know, you'll love those glimmers of days where you're on your game and you're like, OK, I got this. Yeah. I'll give you one peanut for one question.
Hilary: That's such a good tip though, because you're right, we have heard that time and time again. Nothing works for this child. They're not motivated by anything. And I love that idea of just saying watch. Watch them for the next few days, or maybe even a few weeks. Who knows. How long it will take. Let's see how they're spending their spare time, see what they gravitate towards. You're going to find something
Jen: And journal it so you don’t forget.
Katie: And it's gonna shift. Yeah, right. As the newest toy comes out or this movie comes out or you know. It is going to shift
Hilary: Yeah. Pokémon cards aren't cool anymore, but now they're into something else. So.
Katie: Yeah. So you always just kinda have to have your detective hat on and watching if they're if they're not a kid that's gonna answer the question honestly and give you kind of dancing foods and you just kind of gotta sit back and your detective hat on and watch.
Jen: You can say, I see. I see what you're doing
Hilary: Such helpful tips! This has been so fantastic.
Jen: I want to thank you so much for coming and talking to us about these challenging behaviors that some parents have, and we hope that our audience has learned little pieces that can help them. We encourage you to continue to be kind to yourself and know that you're doing the best that you can. And we will see you next week.
Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly - the Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is thefamilyplaceutah.org if you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes, we'd love to see you there.
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