Sleep is such an important part of life but something that can be so hard of many kids. It is hard to find another topic in parenting that bring as much dread as the topic of sleep. Do your kids get of bed all the time, asking for water, or snuggles or something else? Jesse is an ABA therapist as well as a Certified Behavioral Analyst is here to give us tip for helping children sleep. He has great tips on how to navigate newborn sleep habits as well as older children. Listen in today for some greatest ideas from Jesse!
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Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen.
Hilary: Welcome to our Parents Place podcast. Today we have a special guest with us. We are so excited that he is joining us. This is Jessie Yarger and he is from Rogue Behavior Services. And he has a topic that I think you guys are going to be so excited to learn a little bit more about because. I was going to say as parents, but in general this is one of those things that I think a lot of us may struggle with whether that is ourself or even our children. But before we dive into our topic, Jesse, why don't you introduce yourself a little bit and tell us what you do and where you're joining us from?
Jesse: Yeah. So, I am joining you from, Kaysville Utah. And I'm really, I kind of work around the state of Utah and I have lived or kind of grew up in Cache Valley. Went all the way back in the day, went to Logan High School and then Utah State University for my undergrad. Went to Alabama in in Auburn for my Masters degree and then just kind of kind of continued to end up back in Utah. It's just so beautiful here and I think I just really enjoy all the people. So yeah, that's where I'm coming to you from.
Hilary: You always come back, right?
Jesse: Every time, every time. It's too good not to come back. Yeah, I don't know that I'll be leaving Kaysville any time soon.
Hilary: Well, we'll forgive you for the Logan High thing, but so you have a few different hats that you wear. So, tell us about some of the agencies you're involved in and what you do.
Jesse: Thank you. It's much appreciated. Yeah, so I started two different companies and I do a few other things on the side with Rogue behavior services like you mentioned primarily serves children with autism in their homes and their families. We work on a variety of things, kind of depending on what the biggest needs are for each family. And we go in and we just try to find a very individualized way of supporting each of these kids. And it's so fun because these are some of my favorite kids and some of my favorite families. And they all have such different stories and they have such different needs for support. And unique challenges that that I really enjoy kind of helping them through. So that's Rogue Behavior Services. This let's have empowering learners and that one is for basically the same thing. Behavior services. But it's for families who maybe don't qualify for a diagnosis of autism and like insurance funding or Medicaid funding or something like that. So, we still go in. We still do very individualized trade. And but we have a little more flexibility because we're not working through Medicaid or insurance. And so, I know it's like a lot of information basically feel free to give my contact information out to anybody who might be interested and I'll make sure they get to the right place.
Hilary: That's fantastic and I love that you're able to provide that both for those like you say, with the official diagnosis, but also maybe those that are still going through that process because I know that takes quite some time. So being able to give them that help as they're going through that as well too. And then just curious, so can your services for those individuals that may not be locally where you are, are there virtual resources? Can we participate in in those resources even if we're not close?
Jesse: Yeah. So that's definitely an option. I wouldn't say it's like the best option or maybe and even an effective option for every situation. But for those who maybe need just like a little bit of parent coaching or collaboration or something like that, that's definitely an option. Something that we've done, I feel like very successfully in the past and the other thing is we do have kind of connections, we've got staff and really talented behavior analysts or aspiring behavior analysts even. In quite a few cities, kind of maybe lining I-15 and then up in Cache Valley. So, we can also do quite a bit of things in person. That's that maybe we would have previously thought we would have had to use virtual services for.
Hilary: Perfect. Oh, that's so great to know. And as Jesse mentioned, all of this information, his contact information, ways to get in touch with him, we can include that in our notes so that our listener. Just have that and can reach out if that is something you're interested in, which I'm sure many of you are, because what a fantastic resource to be able to offer for those families. So now Jesse is going to talk to us a little bit about bedtime and sleep routines. And when I saw this topic, I was like, thank goodness. Because right, it's hard. It's hard as a parent and Jen and I did a podcast not too long ago about some of both the benefits as well as the health risks associated with sleep and obviously functioning without sleep. And so, we know that there is. So, it's such an important component of our life. If, but when it's our kids, it's hard to know exactly what to do and how to develop those good sleep routines for them. So, first of all, let me just ask you why this particular topic, what intrigued you to? I was going to say pick this and learn a little bit more about this in general.
Jesse: Yeah, my own children, I would say really motivated me to learn about this. I remember I graduated in 2012 from Auburn back to Utah for my first job, and we had our first night in the new House and we did not go well. I kind of felt like I knew everything. I was like a recent grad. I like had this shiny new diploma like degree to hang on my wall. And I was just on top of the world and then we got to like night one. And my kids didn't want to go to sleep. They wanted to, like, run around all of that. I picked them up and brought them over. And they were like, just about to fall asleep when we got there. And they're like new stuff. And so they're like ran all over the place like would not sit down in their bed. I did the thing where I like, put them in their car. It's driving them around for an hour. It felt like, you know, got back to the house at like 2:00 AM and then immediately, they, like, woke up again. And they're like, yeah, there's like, a new place. And so, I had to drive them around again and ended up just. Taking the car seat out and like sitting in the car seat in the middle of living room. And I was like, this is how we are sleeping tonight. So, it was a it was a very humbling experience, but also very motivating for me to get some more education and really understand how to make this better. And I know like, if someone who has a masters degree in behavior stuff. Can't get their kids to go to bed like other people have to be struggling with this with this as well.
Hilary: No, you are. You are painting this picture that I think I mean obviously our listeners that can't that see our reaction right now. But Jen and I are both smiling and laughing as Jesse is sharing the story because I think any parent or anyone that has ever helped in a parent parenting sphere has been in a very similar situation. Where you are pacing the floor with that crying child or driving around trying to get them to sleep or a midnight stroll or walk around the park because there are no other ideas in your head as to how to get this child to go to bed. So, I think we have all been there. We've all been there and we can, as we think about it, we can feel the exhaustion we felt today, when it was happening, so I'd love to. I'd love to kind of because I'm assuming some of the techniques will be a little bit different when we're talking about our newborns versus our older children. So, let's start with that newborn stage. You bring this cute little one home and we are supposed to as new parents develop healthy sleep patterns. And so what should that look?
Jesse: I think consistency is key and obviously with newborns we're talking about like kind of cycles of sleep rather than just like a specific bedtime and a specific waking time. So, with newborns I've done less research and less diving into some of our more professional, you know, people in the field. But I know. So, one thing that's very constant is the consistency. So, like having that schedule up like when you're going to feed, when there's going to be some sort of activity. And then when, when and how you're gonna be putting that kid to bed and do it in a way that works best for you as parents. It doesn't have to be the same. Every kid, and it's probably not going to work the same for, you know, kid one, two, or three. And so on down the line. And so, I think that's the biggest thing and then. Another thing that I think gets overlooked a little bit is how important it is to like, make sure you're taking care of yourself as a parent when your kids sleep so that you're kind of refreshed and you can make those good decisions. Because you were talking about us trying to make decisions at 2:00 AM on how to get our kid to sleep. Like we're not getting smarter as we go larger without sleep. So, I think I think there is a lot of value in and really whether it's resting and playing Sudoku on your phone, whatever you're doing and making sure that you're taking care of yourself as a parent while you have a little bit of down time.
Jen: I always think that like the best advice we can give new moms is to and dads. Is when they have those little newborns, the dishes can wait. The laundry can wait. You need to take care of yourself and probably sleep while they're sleeping. So, they're you're not that sleep deprived because like you said, we're not getting any smarter the later it gets.
Hilary: And Jesse, I love that you mentioned you said this in the middle of the explanation, but you find what works for you because I think that is one of the biggest pitfalls with these new parents as we pull out these sleep training books and some of them are pretty meticulous as to the time of the day and what you should be doing at each and every time the day. And I remember doing that with one of my kids and thinking, but this doesn't work with my schedule because sometimes I work and I have another child and when am I supposed to. I can't carpool this child to school while this child is sleeping. And so, I love that you bring up the, that, whatever it is, you know, you decide on that consistent schedule. But whatever that consistent schedule is. It's going to be for you and it's going to be for your needs because I think that. We don't see that as often when we when we look at the literature out there about newborns and sleeping.
Jesse: Yeah. And I think the really important thing and one of the things that I feel fortunate to have had a lot of really great mentors with is like looking at something like a book, like an article that's written, a study and taking that information, the important parts and identifying what is going to be most important to facilitate that, that schedule. And kind of looking at everything else is like. Gravy. Or like the cherry on top. It's nice to have it, but like sometimes real life happens and I would say more often than not. And that's when we need to that, like you said, that kind of adjust and we can go with things on the fly.
Hilary: So, I'm thinking of you parents out there that are like, OK, I've got that one, that one child that just a constantly crying child, maybe a colicky child, maybe a child, that's still working on digestive issues. We hear about the old cry it out method, and I know there's a lot of debate back and forth as to yes or no. What are your thoughts on that? Are we OK if we're trying to get that little one to sleep, is there a period where it's like, yeah, just let them kind of cry it out and we'll see how it goes.
Jesse: It's such a good question because it really depends is what I would say. One thing I do know is that if we go with the cry it out method and then we're like I can't take it anymore, it's going to be significantly worse the next time cause you know, kids learning to like cry for a certain amount of time. Or at a certain octave or volume, and like, that's probably where they're going to start, because it's the last thing that worked. So that's my, that's my main caution for using the cry it out method. It's personally not my favorite. I know there's not a lot of people that I've met or that I've worked with who are who would be able just emotionally to carry that out. So it's not kind of my go to for that reason. And because I think there are other ways to do it, that may work a little bit lower like you're probably gonna get result. I mean, you definitely will get results with that. If there's science behind it, they'll go to sleep on their own. But you have to do it near perfectly for that to work. So that's my caution more than it just being, like, ineffective. Yeah, I personally haven't recommended that today. The families I've worked with.
Jen: I feel like we would be less smart with that one is too. The longer we listened and so. I remember watching my niece years ago. She was brand new baby and just she was a crying baby and I just thought if I could give her just a little more deep pressure that would help her go to sleep. So, I and then I notice myself doing this and I'm like, I'm squeezing this child. My energy level is through the roof and it's like OK, Jen, it's time to put that baby down and walk away. But I feel like also kids need to have that moment of crying and then being comforted by a parent. So that they know they have a parent there that's going to take care of them and so I really. Yeah, I don't know if I would recommend crying it out. It's hard.
Jesse: How old like the kid is too, like with the toddler. I might have like, some different opinions on kind of how that works or some someone like a child who can understand a little bit of language. We might use some different strategies, but for like newborn where their communication method is crying like that's all they have, then then yeah, I don't think that's like, the worst thing. I don't think we're doing anything that's like irreversible by going in and, like, checking on your kid.
Hilary: Ohh thanks for sharing that. I appreciate it. So OK, so let's you mentioned a toddler. So, we've got a toddler. We've got a child that maybe has more communication. We've started to develop these sleep patterns hopefully. So, they are sleeping for longer periods time, but we're still having the common issues them coming out of the bedrooms, wanting to sleep in our bed. The constant requests for the drinks and snuggles and more stories talk about some of those, some of the strategies that we can use for those typical problems we tend to see with sleep.
Jesse: Yeah. So, the biggest thing like no. Be able to quickly identify what the actual issue is. So, for example, a kid gets up like oh, I need water. It's not about water. The kid is not thirsty. They either don't want to go to bed, they want to get out of going to bed or they, you know, want like a little bit more attention like from mom or dad? It's not even necessarily about thing, but knowing what the actual issue is, it will be instructive for us as we're figuring out what's going to be most effective to help this kid get to sleep and get to sleep on their own.
Hilary: Yes, we like to. I was going to say we like to encourage our parents to find the why. Because usually when you can find the why for the behavior you can come up with a better solution. As to here's my parenting plan at this point. So, I love that you, I love they said that and I interrupted you, keep going.
Jesse: Ohh yeah, no, you're totally fine with. I mean, you mentioned like sleeping with parents. It's getting up frequently, like getting out of bed, just like in general to testament of going to bed, I think is a big one as well. There are a couple of different things that we can do. The first thing kind of like we talked about with the newborns, it's like have some sort of consistency. So, make sure that. I'm to the extent that you're able to start at about the same time and includes the same things so that it is kind of like a wind down and I do have a handout for parents that I'll share with you that feel free to. I don't know if you make links or if you like send it out or whatever you do. But please feel free to share this and this is kind of based on other people's work. I wish I could say that I did a whole bunch of research, but this is me reading other people who are smarter than me and synthesizing. But for the bedtime routine you wanna start with something that they're very likely to do. So even if they hate bedtime, they're probably not gonna hate snacks, or they're probably not gonna hate, I don't know, like reading a book or something like that. So, you want to start with something that is going to be. Like an almost automatic yes. Part of that is not having something that's really exciting that we're pulling them away from to start this bedtime routine. So, if we can, like, facilitate some sort of like. Like minor boredom before jumping into this bedtime routine that can be really helpful. And then after that, it's like let's use the bathroom. Let's get our pajamas on. So, we built up a little bit of momentum towards getting into bed and if we can get that first thing. Usually that makes the rest of it go a little bit more smoothly.
Hilary: I haven't ever heard that suggestion about offering something more enticing to begin that process, so you can kind of hook them in. That makes a lot of sense, though, that, like, let's start out with something that's probably more on your, you know, “fun scale”. And then we we'll kind of take care of all the rest of the things on the agenda after that.
Jesse: Yeah, we do want that to be like a, somewhat calming, whether it's like color and a picture or reading a book like something that they're likely to do, eating a snack, nothing to like sugary or anything like that. Obviously, that'll defeat the entire purpose, but. But yeah, having something that that doesn't involve a screen that they're likely to do is a really good start.
Hilary: Yeah. OK. So, let's say we do all the things we follow, the plan, we get them in bed and then they still come out 15 or so minutes later. Tell us what the vocabulary, what should that conversation look like with our child when we see them come out once again for the second or third or 10th time in the night.
Jesse: Yeah. So, I think it's important to know if it's like a pervasive, consistent thing. So, like, is it every single night that we're seeing that? And if that's the case, I don't think we necessarily even need to have a conversation other than, hey, we're going to try something new. Let's do this and I'll kind of go through what, what some of those might be, if it's a one off. Maybe they're sick. Maybe not. They're not feel like that. Maybe that a hard day at school or daycare or whatever. I don't typically, I typically I feel like underreact to 1 offs. But if it is a consistent thing there are a couple of things that we can do. Usually it's. I would say like either to just because like they hate going to bed or more likely, because now that everything is taken out of their life attention for mom or dad is like way more valuable than it normally would be. And so, there's a couple like I said, a couple of things we could do. I can give you the clip version, but the first one is just giving attention on a schedule, so we want to figure out about how often they're coming out. So, if they're coming out of bed every 5 minutes, we want to almost just, like, beat them to the punch. So, we want to go back in and be like, hey, just like checking on you scratch the back, really like low, like late night radio, DJ type voice. So it's like nice and calm and like scratching, you know, scratch the back or whatever you're going to do, give them like, squeezes or whatever. Kinda feels good to them so that they know that you're going to be coming in. And consistently so they don't have the need to get up and go get your attention because it's going to be coming on a schedule after that works for a couple of nights, go every 5 minutes, every six, every 10. And that's going to be like a really helpful thing. I've also worked with families where. Kid like follows the parent out of the bedroom, basically like, and in that case, what we do is we usually have them like, forget like a sippy cup. “Forget”. I realize it's not great podcasting for me is air quotes, but. Yeah, but yeah, for getting something outside. Like I just forgot something. I'm going to walk out, grab it, and I'll be right back. And so, it's just, like, really fast. They have their own schedule I need to go tell. I need to go tell mom something or Dad something or I need to go like talking. Your little brother or whatever. I'll be right back. Or I'm gonna go pick out this other book that you've done so well tonight and kind of come back that quickly so that there, I mean, we have to start really, really what we call like a dense schedule. But we can use this for kids who get out of bed very quickly as well.
Hilary: I appreciate how this this this process that you're explaining feels so positive to me because I think so often as parents, I mean and then I get it. We're at the end of the day. So, you know our patients, our patients starts full. In the morning. And then it just slowly ticks away throughout the night. But I love that you're still creating this positive atmosphere here, and it's not necessarily. Get back in your bed. You're going to be. You know, you're going to be grounded for tomorrow. We're taking away all the privileges, but you continue to maintain this positive parent child. Relationship through this process, even though the honest as parents, we maybe are a little bit frustrated inside that we're dealing with this.
Jesse: Oh yeah, there's nothing we've ever been frustrated inside. I'm definitely even frustrating my own kids. But like, we think about, like, you know, you're going to be grounded, you're going to, like, lose this privilege with that privilege. Like the kid already doesn't have those things. And this moment when they're going to bed. So, like, then them thinking about like, either I can get out of bed right now and get a little attention. Or like tomorrow I can have my stuff like they're not even thinking about that typically, especially at that younger age. So, it's even if it's effective during the daytime, like, hey, you need to do some stuff before you can have this. But it may not be effective at night time because of the immediacy of, you know what they're what they're trying to get.
Jen: I had a friend that. When her first, she would just scream to go to bed, and she finally learned if she would start off with high energy activities and then slowly bring her down with slow lower energy activity. That's what really helped her, so they would start on an exercise ball and they would just bounce and bounce, bounce and then go down from there and that she also found out it's the why she wanted her mom there and she missed her mom and that she realized that this daughter always smelled her neck when she had perfume on. And that's where she would snuggle up. And so, she started putting the little spray of perfume on her pillow so she could smell that mommy's here. You know, I'm not going anywhere. But she said it was night and day. She months of fighting that screaming. And then she finally figured this out.
Jesse: Ohh yeah, and if you do something active like that, that's so helpful. We want to do it at least an hour if possible before our target bedtime, because our bodies due are more likely to go to sleep with like lower body temperature. But yeah, if we if we do something like that like we get some of that. Charge you out those wiggles like that kind of stuff and then that that quality time like you mentioned, I think that that little extra like attention. With Mom or Dad or who ever's been in them. That can be really helpful too. So, I really, I think that's such a great idea.
Hilary: So, I know some parents struggle with the idea. That, let's say, we've gone through the routine and my child is in their bed. But they haven't fallen asleep yet and you know, we've talked about this on our podcast, this idea that we can't necessarily force our kids to fall asleep, right. And so, for that parent, that's like, they're just in. There. I mean, they're in their bed. But they're not sleeping. How do I physically get them to sleep. Can you provide some comfort? Maybe some insight as to what as a parent who maybe has a child that's still in their room but not falling asleep, is that OK? And what can I do about that?
Jesse: Yeah. So just make sure that they're being calm, right? And they're not, you know, like on a tablet or something like that. But. Well, actually, let me back up a second. The first thing we wanna make sure there's not like a medical issue? There's not, like, yeah, there's not something that is isn't going to be improved through like behavioral strategies. After we get that all cleared and kind of taken care of, but what they can do is just make sure that the that the time that you wake up is consistent. So, let's say 7:00 AM or 730 whatever. It's going to be early for parents too, especially if you're watching after your kid who is up all night but a couple of, like, days of that, maybe even like one day can, like, really help that. So, it's not only about the routine for getting to bed, it's also it can be about the routine for. For getting out of bed in the morning and like you might have a couple of really tired days. But then after that, you know we're likely to kind of help out the. The other thing that we can do is we can figure out what time the kids go into bed and we can say, you know, they need 8 hours of sleep. We can make our wake up time at, you know, 8-8 hours. Past that time and then we can just make their bedtime. We can keep them up, we can. We can make their bed time, you know, 15 minutes earlier than that and then 15 minutes earlier that it's going to be like a slow burn. Obviously it's going to take a little more time to get to like the target time or a time that we deem appropriate. It's probably not going to work great for like school age kids. I have to get up and go to school, but over summer vacation or, you know, for like 4-year-olds or something like that. That could be like a really helpful way as well. But we want to adjust the waking time along with the earlier bedtime.
Hilary: OK. Perfect. I'm going to ask a little bit of a controversial question and we might get some hate letters in the mail for this one. But I'm very curious about this one. I know a lot of parents that choose to use melatonin on a regular basis as part of their bedtime routine. Is that something that you would encourage discourage in this process?
Jesse: You know, I work with a lot of families who do choose to use melatonin, and I know it's it is a little controversial from what I understand we don't know like a lot of long-term effects. It seems probably like a little cautious to that. But it seems like there haven't been anything we haven't seen anything like super negative. Again, from my understanding I have not like looked into like a ton of melatonin things. I would say that my role is more to like adjust or provide a routine or something that is going to work with whatever the family is doing. They feel like melatonin is one of the things that that people either swear by, continue to use or like won't use. So for me like I'm not really there to say like hey, you should or shouldn't take melatonin. What I generally do is say like, alright, we're going to do melatonin, how can we work that into that time routine and how can we really make sure that we're giving it at the right time given the time that we want to go to bed. Then now there's a window with melatonin. If you miss the window, it's gonna be really difficult night, typically. So rather than advocating for or against melatonin, usually what I do is for families who use it is to try to work it into my recommendations for them. I don't have like a strong opinion one way or the other. You know, that's kind of on the fence or cautious or conservative, maybe. But that's really like I think more of my role as far as like what I what I understand about melatonin.
Hilary: Thanks for taking on that controversial question.
Jesse: Did I?
Hilary: No, but I think I think I think you gave some great advice there because. I have and you know, I'll be honest in some of these conversations I've had, maybe these individuals have been more joking or sarcastic in nature. But I've heard a lot of parents that have say, oh, they're, they've got a lot of energy. It's a double melatonin night tonight. Or I'm just so sick of you. We better give you some melatonin. And so I love the idea that you're saying it's not necessarily based on my patience level of do I want you to go to bed because I'm just sick of you at this point. But it's a, if we're choosing to do this, we want this part of our consistent regular schedule. Because it's there's obviously for a reason, it's not just there because we're done for the day and we don't necessarily want to interact with our kids anymore at that stage. So, I think that that's helpful for parents to keep in mind.
Jesse: Yeah, it's such a great point. I think one of the things that like I and this is probably just a statement that we could apply to most of the things in our society right now, but people are just like very concerned about being right. And I don't know that there's necessarily like a right or wrong answer. And so despite that, people just have, like very strong opinions and I just, I don't think anybody's out there to do something that's not beneficial for their kid. So, I think if we have that mindset and that frame of reference. We can move forward. I think a lot easier than just trying to like be right about whether or not Melatonin is the right answer for everybody or nobody.
Hilary: Thank you. Thank you for providing that insight. So, I myself, I've got some younger children, but I've also got some preteens and some school age kids, and our bedtime routines are obviously changing as our kids get older. So, as we start talking about our older children, those preteens and those teens, I don't necessarily want to. It's not that, you know, we totally step away and eliminate ourselves from the situation at that point. When it comes to a bedtime routine. But what does a typical routine look like when it comes to that parent child interaction for those older, older kid as well?
Jesse: Yeah. So I have two girls, the aforementioned. Devil children from bedtime, they do sleep now. So 14 and one's 12. And I think the short answer is it depends. So, since they were little since we had a consistent bedtime routine, I would like once we actually got to bed. I'd live with them and I'd like scratch them actually with like a plastic fork, like just grazing over the back of their, you know, their back or their face or whatever. My 14 year olds like that don't have that anymore, but we use like some components. So, I would tell them like what I was proud of them for that day and then I go into what the best part of their day was, what we're excited for tomorrow and then tell them to stay in their bed. That's something that's from a long time ago, but just kind of kept it. Have some dreams and I can't wait to see it in the morning. And then then I promise I'll never stop loving them. And so, with the 12 year old, she wants the whole thing with her finish. And she's not like a touchy person during the daytime, but like, she just needs that input at night for the 14 year old. She's like that I don't really need this, like, tell me that you're proud of me. You don't have to be specific and that you promised I'll never stop loving me and she's good with that. And then she, you know, lays out and she can like listen to music or whatever. So, I think that story really just illustrates like it still kind of depends on the kid and it's fine to, like, ask them what they want before bed if they want the whole thing or if. It's just kind of like. Going through the process because we've always done it and for my 14 year old, she would argue that like she's doing all that and then my 12 year old, you know, she enjoys that still kinda helps her wind down. So, I would say like keep the components that work and then like work with your kid ask them how they prefer to be tucked in and how they feel most loved right before.
Hilary: You know, I appreciate the fact that even though they're older and I've seen this with my oldest is 13 as so around that same age. But I love that we're still part of that. I mean may it may not be to as large of an extent and it may not be as much of as involved in the process as we were before, but I love that as a parent, we're still able to be a part of that and we're still able to show that love and that affection before they go to bed. Jen, you were going to say something.
Jen: Wondering how you feel about screens at bedtime for those older kids, I have a 16 year old stepdaughter that wants to have her phone connected to her at all times. And so what are your thoughts on that?
Jesse: So, there's the perfect world answer Jennifer and there's the real life answer honestly. Like in a perfect world, I would they, you know, wouldn't have their phones anywhere near bedtime. Probably like anytime after dinner. Because we know that that can make you stay awake a little bit longer. That being said, there are plenty of people who like watch TV shows and go to sleep immediately afterwards. So, I would say like if it's a problem meaning like if it's affecting sleep, then maybe be a little more restrictive. It if it's not affecting sleep and you're, you know, you feel good about, like the decisions that are made, like while using their phone, whether it's like texting people or whatever social media and like after us as parents go to bed and it's not affecting sleep from what we can tell, then that's probably not something that. That needs to be like immediately addressed. But in the perfect world, like nobody would really have, like any screen time, you know, a couple hours before bedtime.
Jen: All right. Thank you.
Hilary: So, Jesse, I'm curious, working with individuals with autism. Are, do you do you suggest anything different when it comes to developing these sleep patterns? Do these individuals with autism have a hard time falling asleep or staying asleep?
Jesse: Yeah, way more than kids without autism, for sure. There, there's the studies really are like wide-ranging in there estimates, but somewhere between like 50 and like 80% kids with autism struggle to go to sleep. And so or have some sort of night time difficulty. So yeah, it is a very common thing and I like kind of knew. It and I was like, yeah, like learn how to, how they help people sleep when I have a client or a family that I'm supporting and then my kids kind of threw a wrench into that. So yeah, it is very common and sometimes it's a medical issue, like just something comorbid with autism. Sometimes it's just I mean cause they're smart, they know how the delayed bedtime and. It's whether they have autism or Down syndrome or nothing at all. It's kids can definitely figure out, and then we have to kind of like, relearn what we knew as kids on how to modify the behavior of people around us.
Hilary: Well, that's interesting. I didn't know that that was such a higher percentage for those with autism. So ohh that makes life tricky. I know I myself have had a child that have dealt with this and many other individuals have, but how do you deal with maybe nightmares or even night terrors, kids that are dealing with that where they have fallen asleep but then they continue to wake up because of certain situations. Any suggestions on what we can do for that.
Jesse: That's such a good question. It's one of the harder things for sure and I've I mean, just to be completely honest with you, I've had like varied success with helping out with this, if there is any sort of trauma obviously like. A mental health professional who specializes in trauma or has, like experience in trauma or treating trauma. It could be behavior analysis. It might be a social worker. It might be a therapist. Might need to be a psychologist. It kind of depends on like who's going to be the best fit. You know for that for that family. But if I mean if that's the case, that probably needs to get hammered out or addressed first, and then that hopefully that probably will help us sleep stuff. If it's not, then. I've read a few studies that say like if you figure out when it's going to happen, you can kind of like try to wake them up a little bit before the night terror. But honestly, it's one of the more difficult and yeah, just more difficult. Kind of heart wrenching sleep situations. I think that that I don't have like a do this and then they'll get fixed answer for unfortunately. But yeah, if I do find one I will reach out and provide any of that information.
Hilary: OK. That's I, we didn't deal with night terrors myself, but my daughter had had a phase in her life where she would have consistent nightmares and. And it was kind of the same thing where it typically happened and maybe they were night terrors to an extent, but it typically happened around the same time. And so. But I mean I think I think you know when our kids are waking up in the middle of the night, it's frustrating. And we just want to say go back to bed, you know like leave me alone. Leave me be each child. But for her like it went back to what you what Your initial suggestions were. I would walk her to her bed and I would snuggle with her for a little bit. And I would come for her. And I would just take those few minutes to remind her that things were OK. But, you know, I think so often we just brush it aside. It's not a big deal. It's just a nightmare. Just go back to bed and it's easy for us to say. But it may not be that easy for them to brush it. Aside as nothing so.
Jesse: I do also think it's important to like make sure that. That's actually what's going on. The way that we look at things like going to sleep on your own co -sleeping with a parent, or needing that, sometimes they can kind of present the same way. So, like we usually wake up. I read somewhere between like 8 and 10 times per night, which they'll remember it because we immediately fall back to sleep. We have that skill of being able to fall asleep without having somebody right there. So sometimes neck tears can be confused with just like not having not having developed the skill to go to sleep on your own. So, if it's a kid that needs a mom or dad or somebody there and like scratching their back as they fall asleep. We want to kind of like either ask them or figure out exactly what's going on to make sure it's not just not having the ability to go to sleep on your own without something there, because that's going to drastically change the way that we that we approach the situation.
Hilary: That's ohh like love that that's great advice. Well, Jesse, we're nearing the end of our time, but I want to give you an opportunity to maybe give any final advice or feedback to our parents that has yet to be covered, kind of as we close up this conversation.
Jesse: So, I'll give well, first of all, call professional. If you need a professional like this last hour, while fairly enjoyable, is not going to like make an expert in sleep, it could help and by using some of these strategy. Might be you know, useful and you might not need to go further, but like just because it like if something doesn't work, get somebody in there for like those more complicated issues even. If it's just. For a couple of nights to have somebody can come over and really help you figure out what's going on. Also have a book. Recommendation that I really like. It's by Doctor Patrick Fryman, who is just like, just such a such an awesome behavior analyst in our field and the book title. It's a little bit long, but I can send you to Amazon link as well, but it's called Good Night, Sweet Dreams, I love you, so now get in bed and go to sleep. And I think that's a it's a really good book as well for parents who are kind of like struggling. It's who obviously going to be a little bit more in depth than listening to our podcast.
Jen: I'll just say. I want to thank you so much for coming and talking with us today and hopefully this has been helpful for some parents to at least get their foot in the water if they need to get more information on this. I want to thank all the listeners for coming and listening and we remind you to be kind and patient with yourself and we will see you back here next week.
Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly – The Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is thefamilyplaceUtah.org if you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes, we'd love to see you there.
Subject Resources:
Rogue Behavior Services: https://roguebehaviorservices.com/
Book Recommendation Link: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Night-Sweet-Dreams-Love/dp/1889322652
Sleep Help Link: Sleep Tips for Caregivers.pdf
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-Email us questions or topic ideas: parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org
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