We all know that sleep is important and at the same time, sleep can be one of the hardest times we have with kids. Between nap times and bed time routines, if we were tired before, most of the time we are exhausted after! With sleep also having a lot of hot topics, Jen and Hilary speak with Cassie, a pediatric sleep consultant, to address some of these hot topics as well as learn various tips and skills to help with parents when it comes to sleep with their children.
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Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen.
Hilary: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast. We have a special guest with us today and this guest is particularly special to Jen and I because this is a former colleague at the Family Place, Cassie. And so not only do we get to see her again and chat with her, but she gets to bring her knowledge to the podcast today as well, too, and she's been in the podcast you've been on it multiple times. If I can remember. So you know she is well known in our podcast world. But Cassie, why don't you start by introducing yourself? Tell us a little bit about your background and. What you do currently?
Cassie: OK, so my name is Cassie Alarcon and like Hilary said, I've been here before. I worked at The Family Place after graduating from Utah State University. And it was kind of in my work here that I got an idea of something I might want to do, and that's what I'm currently trying out. So as I visited with families as a home visitor at the Family Place, I began to realize that a lot of parents were really struggling with sleep and especially parents of younger children. And I found out that you can become certified as a pediatric sleep consultant. So I went ahead and took the time to do that and I'm now working as a sleep consultant, supporting families and figuring out what sleep looks like for them and their young children.
Hilary: I had no idea that that was something that you could become a specialist and.
Cassie: You know, I didn't really either. I had a baby last year and I guess in 2022 and sitting there with little newborn Neil and I was struggling with sleep. It was my third baby and I kind of felt like I should know what's going on by now, but I don't. So I'm looking at all of these things online, trying to figure out what's the secret and how can I do better this time. And I stumbled upon, not only could I learn the information, but I could become certified and share it with other people. So that's what I do.
Hilary: Very cool. So. I'm assuming so tell us a little bit about how individuals can access your services.
Cassie: I am currently operating fully virtual. I feel like one it's a little bit easier for me, but it's also just more accessible for parents. That's what I'm trying to do is just have it be accessible as possible. Hiring a sleep consultant is traditionally something a little more expensive and not accessible to all families, so I've price things really low I offer a low income discount, but I also do it virtually because I know I'm working with families that have babies and little kids and if they had to come see me, they would need baby sitter. So, people can find me on social media or on my website, which I'm sure we can link on the podcast.
Hilary: Yes.
Cassie: And I just do video consults so they can choose to just meet with me for half hour and 45 minutes. We kind of talk about things and I and share information with them or we can work together for three days or a week or more where I really am, their supporting them. You know, they'll text me or e-mail me or call me and say this is what happened. And this nap is a disaster. How can we fix it? And then they're more offering some hand holding as they figure out some new sleep routines.
Hilary: Very cool. So you can kind of cater it to their situation. It sounds like, yes, it can be a one time virtual visit or it can be something that you follow that family, and for a few weeks, until they've gotten a grasp of yes, this new stage. And I'm assuming this can happen. So being that it's virtual you can it can be anyone in the US, maybe even in the world?
Cassie: Yeah, I've been mostly focusing on local networking and things to find clients. But yeah, I could serve anyone and I would love to.
Hilary: I'm thinking back on that stage of life, which was not very long ago, and that was probably and I would dare say for the majority of parents, that is probably the biggest stressor when it comes to new babies. And so I can just imagine parents sitting in their homes and tuning into this podcast and thinking perfect. This is exactly what I want to hear today because we did not sleep at all last night. And so we need some answers. And so yes, this is very cool. Alright, so let's start out. Like I said, this given that sleep is kind of a hot button topic and there's lots of I feel like opposing views when it comes to what to do and what not to do. Let's start maybe some of the misconceptions that we hear about sleep.
Cassie: First of all, just the word sleep training or sleep learning can get people really riled up, and I'll just clarify that. It's not cry it out. It can be. Some parents choose to do that. But I really believe that depending on the parents, the parenting style of the parents. And the temperament and the age of the child there is going to be a method that works well and that people can feel comfortable with. You know, you don't have to put your baby in the crib and shut the door and say, see you in the morning and you don't just let it happen. But there are a lot of different things that you can do, so we don't need to be scared and think that it means a lot of crying. If you're comfortable with that, then you can go that route, but you can also find something that feels more comfortable for you if you're opposed to that. So that's one thing. Another thing I might say is just people often imagine a little newborn baby being left alone to cry, and that's what we're talking about either. I would never recommend a baby under four months. That's kind of the technical. When I got trained. That's what we learned younger than four months, but with the experience I've come to see with my own babies and with clients that it's usually better to wait. Even a little bit longer. You don't have to do it when they're born. You don't have to do it four months. And really, you don't have to do it. Ever. If what you're doing is working and you like Co sleeping, or you don't mind getting up three or four times a night. Then there's no reason to change. You don't have to sleep train just because your sister. Did or just because your doctor said it's a good idea, but you can you know do what works best for you.
Hilary: OK. And I'm so glad you said that because I can remember, I don't remember which of my children this experience was with, but I remember attempting to follow, I won't name names. Attempting to follow a very well known sleep training book. And for me it was, it was to me, a very meticulous like step by step process where basically my life was consumed around sleep training the child. And for me, it was an impossible task. Because I was trying to balance work and I was trying to balance other children and other schedules and it became really overwhelming and really frustrating. And so I like that you're giving us this flexibility to say, you know what we're going to figure out what works for your child based on their age and their temperament and my parenting style. Which for me that book, definitely did not connect with my parenting style and so I love that you're opening up that door to say we're going to find what works best for you rather than saying here's the plan. Right. Follow it.
Cassie: Right. And that could be the benefit of working with a sleep consultant as you don't, you're not stuck with the one book that you checked out at the library or the one podcast that you listen to, but you can have someone that gets to know you and says here what, here's what I recommend. Do you feel comfortable with that? Let's tweak it. Let's figure out what works well for you and my calls with my clients are half an hour, you know. Your book probably took you more than half an hour to read, or you spend hours scrolling Google trying to find the answers so it can be helpful to have that personalized approach, and it shouldn't be stressful. It might be hard for a couple days for the baby or the child, and for you as you get used to something new, but we don't need to be adding stress and adding problems. It's supposed to make your life easier.
Hilary: Good. We always like to find solutions to make life a little bit easier than what it currently is. So you mentioned this like so for those that might be curious as to that four to six month time frame that you mentioned why do we choose to wait and kind of for the sleep training process to begin until they're a little bit older.
Cassie: So newborn sleep actually looks a lot different when you look at their sleep cycles. They just don't sleep like an older child or even an adult. And so we want to wait for that dreaded 4-month sleep regression to happen. That's actually a sign that their body is beginning to naturally produce some melatonin, and they're getting more. You look on a hormonal level. They're more on the natural 24 hour circadian rhythm, and they start to have sleep cycles that look more like, you know, normal or order sleep cycles. So, we can begin to detect those more predictable patterns in the ways that they sleep. If you try to sleep, train a newborn, they're not really ready to soothe themselves to sleep in any way, and some people do newborn sleep, shaping and there are methods out there that you can use, but most likely you'll hit the four months their sleeping patterns are going to change and you'll have to start all over again. But then it will base. It will depend based on the baby too, right? If they're ready to drop some night feeds, whether or not your doctor's worried about their weight. If you notice they're a lot more fussy of a baby and they might not be ready to grab the Binky and start self soothing, then I would definitely wait.
Hilary: OK. That makes a lot of sense.
Cassie : But it depends too, like I've worked with families moms working. 50 hours a week baby turns four months. We're desperate, right? We need some sleep, and sometimes it's not all about the baby. But you have to look at the whole family. And if this is not working, maybe we need to push for sleep training a little bit earlier than maybe we would like to just because of the circumstance.
Hilary: So let let's set up a scenario. So, let's say that my baby is five months or so and starting to starting to notice more consistent patterns, but still continues to wake up three or four times a night. And doesn't want to go to sleep when they wake up during those three or four times in the night and. So we're getting real restless in our home, we need some solutions. So what does that process look like what do we want to start with?
Cassie: The biggest thing is getting on a good schedule. I mentioned melatonin starts to be naturally produced around this age. That's a naturally occurring hormone. That melatonin levels get higher in the evening that helps us feel sleepy. Another hormone that's really important to understand is cortisol. It's a naturally occurring. We all have cortisol every day. Our cortisol levels are higher in the morning and then they kind of dip slowly throughout the day. And as the cortisol dips in the melatonin rises, then we're ready for sleep. And that's a good time to go to bed. What I often see is parents who don't hit. That sweet spot. So then what happens is the baby or the kid catches their second wind. That's a sign that the body is saying, OK, my melatonin time, my cortisol is low. I'm ready to go to sleep, but we're in a busy restaurant and I'm not being laid down to go to sleep. So, then the body sends out some more cortisol saying, OK, I guess we're staying awake. And then we get home from the restaurant. We try to put baby to bed and they're like, wide awake, you know. And then that can cause them to not get deep restorative sleep. They wake up more at night. They it can also cause them to wake up earlier in the morning. So just understanding the basics of those hormones to say, OK, I got to figure out what my child's natural rhythm is. So I'm not keeping them awake too late. Causing over tiredness and then causing all these sleep issues. So that's number one. Figuring out how much daytime sleep should they be getting, getting good naps in getting them to bed on time, and often a lot of families I work with, that's all it is, is they needed to go to bed earlier or they needed one more nap during the day that they were skipping. And when we prevent that over tiredness, a lot of the sleep issues resolved themselves and a lot of parents are so surprised. Like really that's all it was. That's all I had to do. And now we're not waking up four times a night. And yes, that is usually the case.
Hilary: Is there a magical time when we should start putting our kids to bed or does? That just depend on our lives and what time we want them to be waking up in the morning. Well for most typical families. What time frame are we looking at?
Cassie: It kind of depends on the age. Usually we're looking and we're between 6:30 and 8:00. Those younger babies need to go to bed a little bit earlier. Anything after 7: 30 usually is, like, can't get them down. But of course it depends on what time did we wake up in the morning? Did we have a nap or not or things like that? But when I talked to parents whose 3 year old goes to bed at 9:30? That's my first red flag. OK, let's fix this schedule. We need to be going to bed a little earlier
Hilary: And so for the and I can see some parents saying, well, you know, they're not going like they're going to bed at 9:30 because we had a nap at 4:00 or whatnot. And so if that's the case, is it to eliminate that nap? Is it like?
Cassie: Yeah. Again, it will depend on the age. You know, most kids are not ready to drop a nap before age 2. Some kids will nap even until three, 3 and 1/2, four. Again, sometimes they'll have an 18 month old. And their mom will. Say Oh no. Well, she's not tired, so she doesn't nap, but then we're napping. I mean, we're sleeping terribly at night because we need a nap. And the biggest thing is, yeah, understanding how much sleep they need depending on the age. Do they need one or two or three naps a day and then just being really consistent. If one day we're napping at 4:00 and then the next day we nap. We're trying to put them down for a nap at 1, it's really hard to get them in a good rhythm.
Jen: That was one thing my mother always hated.
Hilary: Naps?
Jen: No not naps
Hilary: I love naps
Jen: With my sister-in-law, she was just like, hey, this time, this time this time. We have to be home from the grocery store. This time we have to be home this time this time and my mom's like. Oh, my heavens, let's have some wiggle room here.
Cassie: Gotta live right? Usually when we're talking about sleep training, I'll tell people the first couple of days you do kind of have to be like that. We need to reset, get on a good schedule. But once you have a child who's sleeping well and we're napping, well. Yeah, you can go to Walmart during nap time and if they miss a nap or it's a little early or a little late, it's not going to ruin your life. Unless you do it couple times all week
Jen: Ugh, my Sister in Law
Hilary: Did not see it that way.
Jen: No, it was like 7:00 going. Home like we would be at a family get together and I was like, oh, and my mom would have driven or whatnot. Or my mom went with them. And so I was like, oh, cut everything off. Let's go. It's like, oh, my goodness. I've seen other babies survive.
Hilary: And you know this, this idea that you say and I think this is a powerful concept. When you talked about you know I think a lot of parents see it as if I eliminate naps, they'll sleep better at night. But you're saying the opposing right, like in order to sleep good at night, you also need those naps too. And so, I think sometimes that's what parents see as the solution. Well, I want them to go to bed early, so let's cut out all the. Naps of the day and. Then they'll have a really good restful sleep at night, but that is not the case.
Cassie: No. And often what will happen is. Yeah, they might fall asleep great for your bedtime, but then guess what? 5:00 in the morning, they're up for the day.
Hilary: No one wants that!
Cassie: No, so yes of course, you know, we got to have some flexibility. Everyday can't be this rigid schedule. It's just not realistic. But yeah, as much as you can be consistent, have a good schedule, keep the naps, don't get overtired. And remember, you know, naps only a few years. It's hard, and I have kids that still nap, and yeah, we can't leave in the morning cause. They're napping or whatever.
Hilary: It's true, it does consume a lot of your life at that stage of life. But like you said, that stage is very small. So.
Cassie: In the grand scheme of things yes, and it's worth it to get a good night's sleep to sacrifice that hour of time.
Jen: And when they're older, you just wish they would nap.
Hilary: And that we could too, right.
Jen: I can't remember how Lizzy. She was probably 11-12. Nope, probably 13. She figured out naps were a good thing again.
Hilary: Yes, it's like the circle of life.
Jen: And that's a glorious thing when kids figure that out.
Hilary: They fight so long about not wanting naps, and then they reach that glorious like teenage stage where that's all they want to do. And you're like, been trying to convince you of this for the past 15 years.
Cassie: But then they're too busy and don't have time.
Hilary: Exactly. So, OK, so we we're, we're working on creating a good schedule and getting them to bed at a more appropriate time. What does the bed time routine look like? What do we want that to be, to include?
Cassie: Really, the key is to just be consistent. It doesn't matter what it is, right. As long as you do the same thing.
Hilary: So, it can be long, it can be short. It can include a lot of things, it can be very brief
Cassie: It's got to work for you, right? You don't have to bathe your kid every night. If that causes stress for you and it creates a mess and they don't need it. Then don't worry. About it, if you don't like singing, don't sing you. It should be comforting and calming for your child and for you. So yeah, and then just being consistent, it can be 5 minutes or it can be 20 minutes, but just figuring out what works for you.
Hilary: OK, perfect. And are there benefits or downfalls to like using white noise machines to having lights on lights off, having them completely in the dark. Like there are. Some of those things that we should avoid or watch for.
Cassie: Yeah, for sure. Well, when I work with parents, we'll talk a little bit about sleep hygiene and the environment of the room. And it does make a difference, especially for those really little babies that are just getting used to this for the first time. But for older kids, and really for grown-ups too, right? We shouldn't have our phone in front of our face 2 minutes before we try to close our eyes and fall asleep. Darkness is really helpful because that melatonin, that hormone is produced in response to darkness. So having the lights off if your kid is afraid of the dark and they want a night light, red light is really stimulating to the brain. So a small little red light can be helpful. Avoiding screen time before bed for the kids. Two right? We're not going to be sitting there watching. Mickey Mouse clubhouse 2 minutes before we get in bed, that’s not helpful. White noise machines can be really helpful. They're not necessary, but it does help block out any kind of street noise or background noise that might end up waking them up, and it can just be part of the routine, right? Especially those younger kids ok, turn on the sound machine. OK, now get in bed. They could be something calming for them that signals their brain. OK, it's time for sleep.
Jen: If you have my nephew has to sleep with a big old box fan. Cause that is what she used when he was a baby, She put a big old box fan in his room.
Hilary: Well, for the noises, well. Well, it's like the cooling.
Jen: So now he's still. He's 13, still has to have his box fan.
Cassie: There is nothing wrong with that. I have heard parents say, like, I don't want to turn on a noise machine for my baby because they'll become addicted to it. But you know, you can wean them off, but they might feel kind of weird the first couple of nights. But if you don't want them to always have it, you don't have to. But if our 13 year old wants a fan, that's fine.
Jen: Hey, I'm as old as I am and I still use it, not the box. But a white noise, yeah. Headspace is my favorite thing and my sleep music and I turn it on and go to sleep.
Hilary: All right, so we've set the stage. We've gotten them to bed. Now, what do we do when they wake up at night?
Cassie: Consistency is key. Whatever method you end up choosing, whether you're letting them cry a lot or a little, or not at all, we'll choose a method and we have to be 100% consistent because what happens is. Let's say we are doing some sort of method where we let them cry for a few minutes and then we go check on them. Well, if we do that three or four times and then we're like, oh, I just can't stand it. You know, she's crying too much and we go pick them up and rock them. Then they learn. Well, if I just cry for half an hour, then I'm going to get what I want, right? So that can actually cause more crying when we're inconsistent. So just being really, really sure to be consistent with what we're doing. And then for toddlers to understanding that a lot of the things that I see with toddlers or preschool or even kindergarteners. It's not really a sleep issue. It's not the fact that they can't fall asleep or they don't know how to stay asleep. It's a nighttime behavior issue, so you gotta think about how would I deal with the challenging behavior during the day? My kid needs to know that I'm in charge, that I'm the one that sets the rules and boundaries, and no matter how hard they push, you know, I'm going to be consistent with the expectations that I set. So really communicating with your toddler during the day and helping them understand, OK, I know you've been sleeping in mom and dad's bed, but now you're turning 4 or whatever, and we're going to have new sleep rules. I'm going to teach you how to sleep like a big boy and being really positive about it. You know, we can have rewards if that's helpful for them. We can talk about sleep, you know, like, well, look at Spiderman. He's so strong. He probably sleeps really good. You know, just all throughout the day talking about it. I even encourage parents to role play during the day. So if you're going to be doing a method where. Let's say you're it is your 4 year old who's used to falling asleep in his bed, and then when he wakes up two hours later he comes and climbs in with mom and dad and he's there all night. That's a problem. We don't want that anymore. So now we're going to practice role-playing with him. We explained very clear during the day what the expectation is and we practice. We have him laying his bed. We go lay in our bed and we tell him. Hey, pretend like you wake up and. What are you going to do? And we lean him back to bed and then we lay in the kids bed and we let them be the grown up. And what are they going to do if we wake up and just practice and play with it and have fun so that when night time comes, you are confident that they understand the expectation, they've practiced it, and if they come into your room, you're going to kindly guide them back to bed, even though you might have to do that five or six or seven times the first few nights until they catch on with to, no matter how hard I try, this is the new rule. Of course. They're going to push back. Now every kid is going to push back when we change their routine or change in expectation that's normal and we can expect that, but they're actually going to feel a lot of safety and comfort in the fact that the response is the same no matter what. So just because they're protesting doesn't mean you're doing it wrong, right? And take comfort in the fact that it's healthy and as normal. Of course, we expect them to push it up a little bit.
Hilary: Yeah, yeah.
Jen: And I think. Like I always parents are like my babies are out to get me, or they're trying to make me mad or whatever, and I think it's important for parents to understand that. Children don't have that capacity to say, OK, she's coming this many times, but now I know if I push it one more time, I know they don't have that capacity to figure that out. Children aren't manipulative until later. They just can't think that far outside of the box. And so I think that's something to help remember. I mean, I've work. With families that are like my yeah, my baby is trying to kill me.
Hilary: My baby is a sociopath and you're like, no, they're a baby.
Jen: Yeah. They're manipulating me. They cry. They just want to be held. So they cry or like, no, they probably need you for a reason. And they're not laying there thinking I'm going to tick off mom right now, going to cry.
Cassie: Exactly. And even in the middle of the night when we're really tired, we've got to remember that. And of course, just because we're sleep training and the goal is my kids going to sleep in their own bed or I'm not going to have to get up with my baby. Maybe our kids still have needs in the night and you know. Yes, I'm saying be consistent. But of course, there's exceptions. You know, if they wet the bed, don't make them lay in it. You do or, you know, if they're sick or thirsty or whatever. Yes, we can still address those needs.
Hilary: But I love how you're bringing up like that. There's a lot of pre work that we want to take into account because I think sometimes. I know about me and I'm thinking of my experience that like. I was able to be really consistent during the day, but at night when you're tired and it's 2:00 AM, it's like all right, throw all the rolls out the window. Just come get in bed with me. I don't even care at this point.
Cassie: Oh I know, I’ve been there
Hilary: It's like all the rules get thrown aside because it's survival mode at that point. And so I love that we're putting so much work into this preparation, not only for our kids, but also for ourselves, so that we have a plan so that when that time comes and we're exhausted and we're maybe not thinking clearly, we've already laid the foundation of knowing what we're going to do and how we're going to handle it.
Cassie: Right. And that can be for the things in the middle of the night, and it can also be for bedtime. I know a lot of parents get really anxious about the bedtime, and they dread it. And you don't have to, you know, you can change the expectation. And say I'm not gonna sit by you till you fall asleep anymore. We're gonna do stories and whatever the routine is, and I'm going to walk out, you know, if it's not working for you, you can change it. Yes, it takes a lot of work and yes. We want to be really transparent with our kids and make sure they understand the expectations, but when we do that work on the front end, it is easier us to follow, easy for us to follow through, be consistent.
Hilary: Yeah. You were going to say something. Never mind. You weren't going to say something.
Jen: It went away
Hilary: Any thoughts on, because I know again this is another one of those maybe semi controversial topics allowing kids to have binkies, bottles, things like that. There might be some like soothing techniques.
Cassie: We call him a sleep prop. You know, my baby needs to nurse to fall back asleep or they won't sleep without the Binky. Really there's a lot of different recommendations out there, you know, at. What age we should stop using the Binky or things like that. So yes, we want to inform ourselves on what the current recommendations. But ultimately, it's up to us to decide is this sleep prop causing problems? Well, sometimes it does, right? If my baby will only fall asleep in the binkies in their mouth. But they're six months old and they haven't learned how to put it back in their mouth yet. Then it's a problem because I'm waking up every 20 minutes to go stick it back in, right? So, in that case, maybe we do need to wean from the binky. But you know, if my kids, nine months old, then the Binky is not a problem. And I'm not worried about it. Then we can allow them to have that, so yes. Health. Excuse me. A sleep prop can be a healthy thing. Right. Maybe my three-year old needs their little special stuffed animal. And that's fine. It's not causing a problem, but if you know I don't want to be nursing 7 times a night anymore, then OK, let's figure out a way to help them not be so dependent on that habit.
Hilary: OK. It's a very vivid memories of crawling on the floor in the dark, trying to fill for a Binky that had fallen out of the crib because my child has dropped it and I’m going like, where is this? I don’t feel it anywhere, so I can see that being both a blessing as well as the curse. So, I appreciate that.
Jen: He brought up bottles, though, and I always taught not to give babies bottles in their bed or prop bottles just because then that gets that fluid in their ears. Am I wrong?
Cassie: And it can also cause tooth decay, right? If they've. Got that milk sitting on their teeth all night long? Yeah, really. Just not the best habit. If they want to. Sucking on something we can offer the pacifier rather than the bottle.
Hilary: OK, OK. Let me bring up one more controversial topic, if I can. We've mentioned this a few different times in this process, but I know that there are many that choose to co sleep and the many that are choose not to. So what are the what's the research benefits, the downfalls of choosing to do that as a family?
Cassie: Really, you just if you are going to choose to Co sleep, you've got to learn how to do it safely. When we're learning about SIDS, you know sudden infant death syndrome, there's a lot of accidents that do happen in the bed. You know, when mom and dad are deep sleepers and they roll over, it's just really, really unfortunate. So if you are choosing that there are a lot of reasons to choose to c sleep. But we just need to make sure we're informing ourselves on how to do it safely and never introducing products, you know, into the bed that have not been deemed as a safe product to use, but a lot of parents choose it. It's easier to breastfeed. It's comforting. Where you know, some moms are really anxious and don't like having the baby away from them and they feel like they sleep better when the baby is in bed. Usually, I encourage people to not go sleep just because I'm worried about liability and safety and things like that. But of course, if that's something you're going to choose to do, there are ways to do it safely, and some people choose to do it for a long time. There's 5-6 year olds that still sleep in bed with mom and dad. If it works for you. Go for. But I've also heard stories of, unfortunately, marriages that end because we have a baby. We have a four year old in the bed with us and we're not having that time alone to connect and so never just never feeling like you have to do it one way or the other, right? Finding what works for you and figuring out how to do it safely.
Jen: I always have wondered that. When you have a 5 or 6. When do you have parent time? What do you work on in your relationship?
Hilary: It does put a damper on that area. If there is a little body in that bed.
Jen: Like I've always wondered, and I don't know if they had them when your youngest was young, like baby size. Those little things that you slide into your bed like underneath the mattress. But that then it's like a bed next to the bed.
Hilary: Where you can somewhat attach it to the side of the bed.
Jen: Yes, that's a fabulous idea because then you can go sleep. You put your hand over it or whatever. They're right there. So I'm like that was a genius idea. Why did it take that long to put that out?
Cassie: A much safer option.
Jen: Because I'm always one that is afraid of rolling over or whatnot.
Cassie: And then you never think it will be you right. You just got to be really careful
Jen: Oh, I'm a light sleeper. Well, there's always that one night.
Hilary: When you're in a deep sleep and you don't realize. Yes, it's true. You know, I feel like I, I love this conversation, Cassie, because I'm because I love that. Like I mentioned early it's creating a very personalized plan. I can remember with. I think it was my youngest. So I had no problem with my babies early on when they were young being in the room with us. They weren't necessarily in the bed, but we usually have them in a bassinet or had the crib in in the bedroom with us. And I loved that. It gave me comfort to know that they were close, that I could hear them if there is a potential problem. But my husband hated it. Hated it because every little squirm and coo and wiggle that would wake him up, and so he'd go months without months with restless sleep and, and so finally it was with our, with our, with our last one. After doing this, you know this very similar situation with the other three. That was the last one that you said. From day one, he's going to be in his own room because I can't. Like I can't do it anymore. I need sleep. But you know what, we found that it worked for us and. So, I love that you know that we can make this, we can make a plan that's going to work for our family because for him it didn't work to have him in the room with them.
Jen: See, I would be the sassy wife then and say I need sleep too Dude. Welcome to my world.
Hilary: And you know what? At first, those first few days were hard because. I thought, no, I can't. But you. Know it. After a while I was like, alright, I see. The beauty and not hearing every grunt that my baby is doing, and so I think that that's a powerful message to send to parents.
Cassie: I've heard people say that about baby monitors.
Hilary: Yes.
Cassie: That maybe my baby's sleeping just fine, but I hear a sneeze. And so I'm awake and I'm looking at the monitor and I'm hearing. Yeah. And you don't have to have a monitor, you don't have to turn it on every night if. It's not working. For you, you know, maybe you need to wait and hear them when they're actually awake and crying, and then you go get them. I love that story that you shared about your husband. That's funny, cause usually the man is the one that sleeps more deep but. You know, it's true. Every family is different. You know, every couple is different. So you just got to find what works for you. Don't worry about what everybody on. Social media is. Doing or what your family recommends, just find what's safe and what works for you.
Jen: I'm a mean wife. I’d say the couch is out there, buddy. Enjoy
Hilary: Now let me ask one more because again, I think this is another thing that we hear quite often, especially with young. We talked about, you know, the power of that, that bonding, you know, bonding with our kids at an early age and so. You know, for parents that choose to maybe allow their kids to cry it out to an extent or to cry. It out entirely. Like, is that good? Is that bad in relation to bonding? Do we see that having an impact?
Cassie: There are studies that often the results are a little misconstrued to make it sound like sleep training is damaging. But when you actually look at the research, there are a lot of really well. How do you say like? Like when it's done right? How do you sat that?
Hilary: Oh, I don't know. We can say reputable, I don't know.
Cassie: There are a lot of well done studies that show that there are no long term damaging effects. Their cortisol levels might rise slightly in those first few nights when they're crying a little more, but it doesn't affect them in the long term. And I also think it's really important for parents to understand that attachment parenting where I'm breastfeeding. And baby wearing and Co sleeping, which I did some of those things. And I'm not saying it's bas. That it can be very helpful, but attachment parenting is not the same as forming a secure attachment with your baby. They can be sleeping in the other room. They can cry for 15 minutes and still know that they are loved, that you are there and you're very attentive to their needs. So just understanding that a little bit of tears and crying is OK. We're doing it. It's short term, it's purposeful and we're there with them helping them as they learn these new skills.
Jen: You know, it reminds me of when. In horses, with horses and working with horses. And I was doing a training and we had to work on this attachment detachment kind of a thing with the horses. And it was the attachment. OK, here get. The horse to follow you without using any tools it is having. You connected to where they're going to want to come and follow you and then detaching to where you're like, stopping a horse. But now you're going to be able to keep that horse here. And you're going to be able to go and do a lot large circle around it and they would always compare it to parenting of yes you want to be attached and have that good relationship and things like that to where you're playing nicely together. But then you're also you have the opportunity to get up and go to the other room. And have them be OK and know that that's OK and that that is a safe, secure detachment. Kind of a thing. I always loved that I always loved horses and comparing it to parenting.
Hilary: Well, I mean, I think this is a different topic, but I think the same idea I remember with one of my older kids, really struggling with breastfeeding and in my head being told you have to do this. This is the best thing. This is what your child needs. This is what you've read. This is what the research says. And so I, you know, I went through that process of attempting to breastfeed for so long, but the whole time. I was, I mean through that whole experience, it was it was hard and it was overwhelming and it was stressful. And I hated it. I can honestly say I hated it and I it would give me great anxiety when I knew that it was time for me to breastfeed my child. And so even though I was doing something that was, quote UN quote bonding with my child. I think it was actually causing me the opposing effect. It was giving me a lot of, you know, causing me a lot of giving me a lot of anxious.
Jen: And you're getting anxious right now.
Hilary: Yeah, great. Can you tell with my hands? And so I think sometimes. You know, like we are better off as a parent to say, hey, I can rock my crying child and attempt to soothe them. But if that's giving me more anxiety by doing that, the best option is potentially to leave them in their crib where they're safe and secure and where we're still in the, you know, ears earshot so that we know if there is, you know, a safety issue, but it. I think so often we do what we think we're supposed to do. Because that's what. We've read, but if it's not helpful for us, it's not going to be helpful for them.
Jen: And I think with that I may be wrong. I would feel like those stress hormones are patched through milk and that can't be good for, I mean. Your babies pick up all that stuff. And it causes them stress as well. And so it's not that bonding attachment thing that you're wanting. There's lots of other ways to bond and attached with babies besides just breastfeeding.
Cassie: And especially, you know, in regards to sleep training similar to your experience with your baby. You know, parents might be waking up 14 times a night responding to every little sound because they think they have to. They think they're damaging their baby if they don't. But then I hear these parents who are extremely sleep deprived. They're frustrated. They have resentful feelings towards the child, and they don't show up in parent the way they want to during the day. So, you know, it's not just about responding during the night, but also how is this affecting your life in the day?. And if you can't parent the way you. Want to then let's fix it so that you. Can enjoy you know these early years with your child.
Hilary: And that's what I found when I finally, allow myself to embrace the fact that breastfeeding may not be the best choice for me that I became such a happier person because I was like, wow. Like I can be I can be a better parent for my child, having let that part go because. I know that I can serve and support them in other ways and capacities, and so it did. It made a huge difference. You may not be able to answer this question because I think it will be very dependent on each and every case and each and every family but. If we are in this process, we've taken the tips you've provided. We're doing our best to be consistent and have our plan in place. How long do you usually see that it takes before we get on a good groove and our kids are now sleeping through the night. Having restful sleep.
Cassie: Usually, the first three to five nights are the hardest and seeing where the baby or the kid is going to protest a little bit, they're trying to figure out what is going on. And for toddlers it might be more like 7 to 10 nights, so they're still going to hit you at bedtime or they're still going to get up in the night. But usually by that 10 night mark, we're doing good. So it takes about I, I would say generously, it takes about two weeks to learn the skills and by the end of the month we're doing really well. But yeah, I don't know what it is. It's like this magic hump. After the third night. Babies tend to cry the most on the third night of. Sleep training doctors tend to protest the most on that third night. But if you can be really consistent, those first three nights, Night 4 is usually better.
Hilary: OK. I can do three nights. That seems that seems very within reach, so I like that.
Jen: I had a mom, she wanted her child out of her bedroom so badly. And they said, well, let's take a weekend. Let's try starting on Friday night. Be really consistent Saturday, Sunday. And I went back the next week and she's like. I wish I would have done that years ago. And I'm like. You know it we if we can just buckle down for those first couple several nights it's.
Hilary: Uh huh. And anticipate. That it's probably it. It's going to be hard. They're might be some tears on both ends, probably for the baby and for ourselves, right? But yeah, designate some time and going into it with some realistic expectations, but also coming into it with the plan, I think that that is the most powerful thing. That we can do for ourselves is. I'm going to come in this with a plan. I'm going to anticipate that it's going to be hard because it will be, but this isn't going to last forever.
Cassie: And have some support, whether you hire a sleep consultant or you have your partner or your mom is on the phone with you, have somebody that can help you and help talk you through and help you stay consistent.
Jen: Yeah, they just reminds me of boundaries and children. I mean, they need them. They're not going to ask for them, but they need them and want them. Because it keeps. It helps them feel safe and I feel like this falls in the same realm of that of having that routine of being able to predict what's coming next. Because that creates that sense of safety.
Cassie: And that's why there is a little crying at first, because we've had this predictability. We knew that we were going to get nursed or get to sleep with mom or whatever. So, when we changed that, there is that disruption, of course we're going to feel a little weird. But once we settle into the new routine, that's what's about that sense of safety and predictability. And then we can really rest easy.
Hilary: OK, we are running out of time and I love this conversation that we've had. So, Cassie, any last minute tips that you would offer to parents?
Cassie: I think I would just reiterate that fact that you don't have to do what everybody else is doing. Like you mentioned, you mentioned the word controversy more than once. This is a hot topic and we can be led to feel really bad for choosing either way and I'm not here to tell you what's right or wrong, right. It's your decision to choose what's best for your family no matter what anybody else in your life is telling you to do what you need to do so that you wake up feeling rested and ready for the day, and that your baby or your kid is getting the sleep that they need in order to develop properly.
Hilary: Love it! You're going to have a lot of parents out there. They're like hallelujah. You're going to have a restful sleep. It's going to happen. So, we will include all of Cassie's information in your social media information. And did you say website? OK, we will include those in the show notes as well too. So that you have access to her resources. She's a wonderful resource to take advantage of her wealth of knowledge.
Jen: So, thank you so much, Cassie, for coming. We appreciate it! It's been great information and great to see you again. We want to thank all of our listeners for coming. We want to remind you to be kind and patient with yourself and we will see you next week.
Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly - the Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information, our website is thefamilyplaceutah.org if you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes, we'd love to see you there.
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