Coming out is more than just a one time event. As parents, we love our children and we want to show them that love is unconditional. Devin Preston is a therapist here at The Family Place and is here to talk to us about coming out, its importance in the life of an LGBTQ+ member, and what we can do to continue that endless love that we have for our children.
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Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen.
Hilary: Welcome to the podcast today, we're excited to have you guys here. Always welcome our listeners. Whether you are a new or a returning listener, we welcome you here. We have one of our colleagues here with us today, Devin, and we're really excited that she has taken this opportunity to be on the podcast. Devin works in our therapy department as one of our clinicians, and I'm going to let her just turn it over to her and let her introduce herself a little bit, a little bit about her background. And then, our topic that we have for today. Go ahead.
Devin: Awesome. Well, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here and to see you both. My name is Devin Preston. I, like you said, I'm a clinician here at The Family Place. I've been here for just about two years now. That's crazy. I just graduated in 2021 with my master's degree in social work at USU and for the past like five years, that number keeps growing somehow, I have worked with LGBTQ individuals and their families throughout the state of Utah. So, I started working at a place called Encircle, which is a youth and family resource center for LGBTQ folks. And I did a lot of work in Provo and Salt Lake City during my undergrad and running programs and learning a lot about what the community here in Utah needs and what is helpful for them. And that really fueled my passion for doing therapy with this population. So, I primarily work now as a therapist and Encircle and The Family Place with LGBTQ youth and young adults. And then I also get to run really fun support groups here at The Family Place. I run a therapeutic support group for parents of LGBTQ individuals, and if they have family members, they're welcome to join as well. And we really dig into it, and we dive into it, and give them a space to explore what it's like to be parents and going through their own journey with their children. And then this summer we did a workshop series, which has been really fun. It's a little more flexible and educational, and we'll be starting up that group again for the therapy group in the fall this year. Super excited to run it again. We got a great response up here and I just think it's something really needed up here, I think this community needs as many resources as it can get. Yeah. And I guess I can talk a little bit about. I feel like I talk a lot. So please pause me anytime.
Hilary: When you have something you're passionate about, that just comes out, we know that.
Devin: Yes. But I started in this because I grew up in Salt Lake Valley as the daughter of lesbian parents, and that is a really unique experience in Utah. It's starting to become a lot less unique, which is fun. But for me, that was, I was different and have always been kind of half in the LGBTQ community, half out, half in the dominant culture here. So, I feel like that provides me with a pretty unique lens into all sides here in Utah and what it's like here. And that has really helped me to realize that this is what I love to do, and I'm really grateful that I get to be here and talk about it and do it.
Hilary: Awesome. So, I don't want to get too off topic, but I'd love to hear, you mention that working with Provo and with Salt Lake and finding out what our community needs. What do you tend to find our community needs more of? I know that, I think are the resources that are out there. They're getting better, but they're not great yet. So, with your experience, what do we need more of?
Devin: Yeah, up here in Logan, specifically?
Hilary: Yeah, in Logan and then in Utah as a whole.
Devin: Yes, I think that it depends on where you're at. I think Salt Lake has a lot of really great resources and could always use more. Provo was really lacking in resources a couple of years ago, and it was pretty underground. I think there were resources but you had to know people who knew people. And since then, there's been so many, like Provo now, has so many groups and organizations and really wonderful folks. And I think that that's really a growing space. But I think here in Logan, specifically, I'll just talk about that. I think really we have some wonderful resources, we have a youth pride center and an adult pride center. They're doing their very best to be run by the community for the community. And I really love them and I love connecting clients with them as well. And at the same time, there's not a whole lot of the whole community embracing of them. I think a lot of people don't know they exist. And there used to be a PFLAG chapter up here. And since COVID, it hasn't been here anymore. That's for parents. Logan Pride is trying to do a parent group as well, and they're doing their very best to get the word out and get that started. So I highly recommend their parent support group. And yeah, so the reason I started a parent therapy group is because of that. There were lots of resources for LGBTQ folks in a less formal and more fun time as you are kind of way. And very few opportunities for parents or LGBTQ folks to process. There are some therapists in the valley who are experienced in that. But really, since COVID, there's not been a whole lot up here for them, especially that's affordable. So, I think it's been really special to able to provide that for parents. And the reason I focus on parents is because I work a lot with kids, one on one with the LGBTQ community, one on one, and we get to process a lot of stuff. And I love that work, and I think that's a vital part of my passion. And when I see, I think that they can always benefit from a therapy group as well, but I see that the folks who struggle the most are parents. And the kids are usually fine with their identity. They know who they are. They can find community, it may not be easy, but they're really resilient and they're really good at it. And I think the barrier often is family. Family and parents where they don't know how to get their kids involved or they don't know how to approach things, or they can make things worse and not know it. And generally, I find that parents really just want to do what's best for their kids, and if they don't have the resources, they don't know how, right? So that's kind of why I focus on parents first. It's like with my limited time, what is the biggest need? And so that's where I started.
Hilary: So, and I think that that's where we're at, the direction I think we'll take with our podcast today. But before we do, Devin and I were talking before we started the podcast, and these groups are in-person at this point. But if there is an interest outside of Logan, maybe even potentially outside of Utah. She mentioned that if there's a big enough interest, we could potentially start offering virtual courses as well, too.
Devin: Yes, absolutely. We're definitely designed for stuff like that. We absolutely can. It's just really what we offer is based on what we find interesting and what people want.
Hilary: So perfect. So, if you are a listener out there and you're thinking, Oh, I am not in Logan, not even in Utah, but that is something that I really would like to be a part of. Reach out to us through our Facebook page and we can get you connected to Devin and go from there. So, let's kind of dive into this topic. I love that you bring up that we need more support for these parents that don't necessarily know how, to maneuver this new world. And so, the topic that we brought up today was ‘coming out’. And we've used that term. Talk about that term. How long has that term been around? Is that a widely used term in the LGBTQ community? Yeah, a little bit about what that means.
Devin: Yeah, the history of the term, I don't know as much about, I'm still learning quite a bit about LGBTQ history. I think it's a term that my parents understood, but they never had the kind of coming out that we know as colloquially or mainstream media and stuff. They had very different experience, and I think that's what you find largely is that it's a decently modern, last 20, 30 years or so, concept in the way the media portrays it. But it's something that on the whole has always been something LGBTQ people interact with, right? The way we talk about ‘coming out’ when I talk with parents is we talk about it as disclosure or strategy. So, when you think about what LGBTQ individual goes through, especially through the ages and the decades, and depending on where they live and their environment, the way they might go through a coming out process is going to be really different. And there can even be, even within the community, this idea, this is the right way to come out or this is what you should do or how you should do it so that you can be truly part of the community or you can be truly out. And sometimes parents have that idea to right like, Oh, well, if my kid didn't come out, like, what does that mean? Or I didn't see it like, I've seen it, you know, my kids friends talk about it. Absolutely. But really, what it's just a process of disclosing your authentic, authentic self with someone else and helping them understand that the context with which they see you is different than they may have anticipated, and they're going to have to navigate that throughout their life. As long as we live in a heteronormative, cis normative world, then they're going to have to navigate a coming out process their whole life, a disclosure process. So that's where strategy comes in. That's why I talk about strategy. I talk about this with my clients, too. It's sometimes people get really caught up in that idea of an ideal coming out or right or this is the right or wrong way to do it, like I said. And what we're forgetting is the context in which they're operating. So, you know, does it make sense for a 13-year-old in a really conservative high school middle school to come out to their classmates? I don't know. That may not be safe for them. Does it make sense for a 22-year-old in college to come out to their professor and let them know I use these pronouns? Maybe, maybe that's safer. Maybe it's not, right? They're constantly evaluating in every situation. How much do I disclose? What's my strategy here? It's pretty unconscious. They're really hyper vigilant without knowing it. Sometimes they've had to be to survive. Right? So, I would say, don't take it personally. However, they choose to strategize is what they think is going to keep them safe. Right? And until they know otherwise, it's going to be difficult for them to trust because what if they trust wrong? All right. What if they disclose to someone who's not safe or they kind of make themselves vulnerable in that way when that's not safe for them? Right? So that's kind of the context in which we talk about coming out and disclosure. Do you have questions about that?
Hilary: I just love how you're laying this foundation because I think a lot of times when people think about coming out, they think about a one-time, right? The words come out of my mouth, I say it that one time and then all of a sudden, everybody knows. And it's not a secret anymore. And so, I love how you talk about that it's more of like a process because to be honest with you, it's probably not a one-time event. Like it’s going to happen over and over and over again throughout their lifetime. And I think that's important for us to remember. It just opened my eyes to this idea that of how difficult this would be to maneuver so many different social settings.
Devin: Yes. So, think about like when you go into a new work setting. Right? And they invite you to a dinner or to an event or something and tell you to bring your spouse. Right? But they tell you, Oh, bring your husband. Right? And now they say that to a queer person. And they have to decide, Oh, this new workplace is this safe. What do I say, right? Can I even bring my spouse right? Like what if they, you know, or can I bring a partner if we're not married? Like at what point, right? What if they have multiple spouses, right? Who knows? Like, there's our partners and there can be a lot of things to navigate in just that. Right? Or coming out comes up in think about, like for parents, right ? They might be in an interaction at work or a function or something, they're like, oh , tell me about your daughter, right? Or, you know, your neighbor who is known your kids for forever and then they come out. But your neighbor doesn't know, and the parents may say, Oh, tell me about your daughter, how is she doing? And the parents now like, Oh. All right, well, well, they go by he now. Right, and how do I navigate that situation and how does my kid navigate that with someone who is kind of part of your life but not really? That's going to come up throughout their whole life constantly. Like I said, as long as we live in a society that kind of expects a norm or expects things to be in this typical way, they're always going to be encountering that.
Hilary: Statistically speaking, and maybe this is a question that you may or may not have an answer to, I don't know if anyone has an answer to this, but do we know kind of a typical age when most teens decide to come out?
Devin: I think it depends on the environment, for sure. Like I've already said, and we're still learning a lot about what that is. It hasn't been until the most, maybe in last three or four years, that we've been able to gather data on this in the state of Utah. Nationwide, there have been a lot of legal restrictions to collecting this data for youth, anyone under 18. And from what I know, our best knowledge is that usually around puberty is when a lot of folks start to start to understand their gender identity or their sexual orientation. And at the same time, many might know long before that they may know really young. I mean, think about when is the first time you were, I'm going to make an assumption, but the first time you felt attracted to a boy in your school? Right? How young were you?
Hilary: No, I mean, you're talking elementary age for a lot of people.
Jen: I remember my fourth-grade boyfriend. His name was Carl.
Devin: Right? Or even in kindergarten, kids are playing house or playing, you know, I'm going to get married, right? And they, you know, they get married and divorced in the day, right? That's stuff we do really, really young. And we're practicing. We're playing. We're experiencing that. And then if you're a kid and you're like, Oh, actually, that doesn't feel right. You know, I like girls or I like, you know, I don't really care. I like both or whatever. And then the school playground is enforcing those norms, too. That gets really weird. So, some kids know really young, but maybe don't have the space to explore it. So sometimes parents will be like, Oh, well, if you're saying telling me you knew when you were five or six or seven, why didn't you tell me? Right? And that's something parents I think struggle with a lot is, why did they wait? And that's why I come back to that strategy term all the time, because it's like we'll think about their environment. What was their perception at the time? Did they think it would be safe? Did they even have an opportunity to explore that they have any education?
Jen: Or do they have any language? You think that young, they probably have no idea how to explain that or what questions to ask or any of that. It's just. I don't know. I can't imagine. Having something that didn't feel right
Hilary: And then not necessarily knowing how to communicate that. So, let's focus on that, like I'm thinking to myself, as a parent, you know, creating what I hope is a comforting, loving open home. And what can we do as parents to make this situation as comfortable as possible so that our child does feel open to come out and express those feelings that they may be having?
Devin: Yeah, well, I first want to ask you both of you, what do you do already to try and help your kids feel safe and comfortable?
Hilary: I know that our house, we have tried to set up the expectation that they can come talk to us about anything. And this is anything regarding, if they have a bully problem at school, if my son has seen pornography on the computer, if they're having a hard time getting along with their friends. But we try to set up this expectation in our home that any conversation can be an open conversation and that we will always be there non-judgmentally to listen and to help out, if possible,
Jen: For our family as well, having that open communication has been really key. And that's something that I really wanted with my stepdaughter because she was going to be coming over every other weekend and on Mondays, and I wanted us to have that good relationship. So, making sure that she knew I was comfortable about talking about any conversation. And I'm glad that we did that when I first was in her life because she did, I think it was 12 or 13 and her dad was back having a heated conversation with his other daughter. And I was out there with my stepdaughter and she just started crying and I was like, What is wrong? And she's like, I need to tell you that I'm gay. It was like, OK. And she's like, I'm afraid to tell Dad, can you please keep it a secret? Well, I said I will not tell him tonight because there's this going on. But I feel like you need to tell him and she's like, I will by the end of the week. But then for me and I probably didn't handle it right. I’m having to keep the secret for my husband and I finally told her, You know what? I can't keep a secret from your dad. If you need help in that process, I'm happy to help you in that process, but I can't go all weekend having this secret, on me. So, I can't imagine for her how long that process was for her keeping her secret. He's like, Oh, OK. I kind of knew already kind of a thing. And so now it's been three or four years and we still navigate it all the time and probably make lots of mistakes and kind of like this, I'm like, OK, I texted her last night, I said, OK, I told you, I'm doing a podcast on the LGBTQ community. I said, Are you OK if I share on air that you're part of this community or do you want me just to keep my mouth shut? She's like, No, I think I'm OK with that. That's OK. And just she said, Thank you for asking. And again, I'm like, I love you kid. And she's like, I love you too. But since then, prior when she first said, she said, I'm gay and lesbian. And then, over the years, it's changed. She doesn't want to put a label on it, but to put a label on it, she's bi, and she has a boyfriend right now. So, we're like, OK.
Devin: What I love about that. There are several things you said in there that I love and that you said as well, but I think that the biggest things there is that you asked permission. That's huge, right? And you communicated very clearly like, this is difficult for me. I would like to be able to share this with my husband, with your dad. Like, let's talk about that. Let's talk about what's keeping you from being able to say it, right? And if you need any support in that. That's huge, right? That goes a really long way in showing them that you are a safe place, right? But this is a place where they're able where she's able to talk about it. And then you also, I'm thinking about it. What else did you say that I really liked? I think that just being able to explore that with her and so that's another thing is parents often are like. Well, I don't understand how you came out this way, but now you're saying this like, is it a phase or what? Right? And I love how you handled that with her too. That often, just like you said, they don't have the language for it or they've never been able to really explore it, it's just been kept inside. And what really we see that happens is that that's their first toe dip into self-exploration. They're like, OK, this is what feels right, this is what I've learned. As they learn more and explore themselves more, start to have relationships, start to have friendships, start to engage more in the media, learn more about the community. All these things that happen dress differently, express themselves. You know, they're going to find out what fits better, right? They're going to be like, Oh, I don't know about that. I didn't know I could be that way, right? So those changes are not phases. It's just a stepping stone through their journey of self-exploration, right? And that journey is not linear. You know, it comes and goes and changes a lot. And then the other thing you said that was really beautiful is, you know, that empathy and recognizing, I can't imagine how long she knew and kept it, right? Yeah, that must have been really hard because it was hard for you to keep up for
Jen: 24 hours. I never lied to him or held a secret from him, so.
Devin: Yeah, and sometimes parents think like that it's really sudden or that they didn't anticipate it. Or maybe they have known the whole time, right? Why did you take so long? And it just comes back to like perhaps there's a lot going on in them that we aren't aware of. Right? Think about when you were a kid, like, how much did you think and experience all the time that you didn't know how to voice or that you didn't, I mean, your parents aren’t going to sit there and listen to you babble for hours and hours like we might want them to, right ?
Jen: Just with her dad. When I said, we need to let him know, I can't keep a secret anymore. And she's like, I don't want to say it. So, what can I do to help you? She's like, ‘Well , you tell him.’ And I’m like you're going to be sitting with me, right? We're going to do this together. And she said, OK. So, we came in and then we said, Lizzy would like you to know something. And he's like, OK. And he knew it was a serious conversation. And then he said, OK, and then he looked at me and he's like, Is she just going to tell me she's gay? And I said, Yeah, go ahead. So, then it just open that door of questions of. Do you understand this? Do I understand this correctly? And going back and forth. But it's still every day and I think a little bit every day is. It can be hard, and it can be sad because you had this idea for her, and now that idea has changed her future and all of that kind of stuff. And so, it's hard and sad sometimes when you look at it that way from a parent's perspective.
Hilary: Yeah. So, help us out Devin, you mentioned that I didn't know what to say and I probably said the wrong thing. So, I'm just imagining a child coming to a parent and saying, I'm gay. What are the best things that a parent can say at that point. And what are some things that are not going to be helpful to say at that point?
Devin: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a myriad of depends on your kid. You know, hopefully you're the best person to know what your kid likes to hear and what's helpful. The most important thing is to be affirming and to evaluate the situation and figure out, OK, some kids are like, Hey, you know, you keep telling me to get a boyfriend, but it's going to be a girlfriend, ok? You know, and they're pretty chill about it or whatever. Or they're like, Hey, you keep using this pronoun and that's not right. Right? Some kids are pretty chill about it. Some kids, it's going to be really, really vulnerable. So read the room, right? Think about what they might be experiencing. And I think acknowledging that it's really important to you to say, I can see this was really difficult for you , right? Make it very much about them. There's going to be a lot that comes up for you. I'm sure, for anything that our children disclose to us, we're going to have our own reactions, a whole myriad right? But this moment is really about them, right? What are they experiencing? What are they telling you? What do they need, right? Respond in a way that they need. Now what you need, right? So, saying I can see this is really hard or what was that like to tell me, if you don't know, or thank you so much for telling me, right? I'm really glad you felt safe enough to tell me. Celebrating that a little bit like, Wow, that's really cool that you told me that. I'm so glad I know now. Can you help me understand, right? If you don't understand and some parents really like celebrate, some kids really want to celebrate and say, and you can say, I'm so excited for you, right? That's so exciting. Let's celebrate this. This is wonderful. And some kids want it to be more chill. They don't want that much tension. It depends on your kid, right? Either way, it is a celebration that you've made the space safe for them to come to you and tell you that. It is a celebration of parenting , right? That they have either decided that they can't take it anymore and need to be honest, come what may and they're doing that with you. How cool is that? Or that you've created that space that they're like, I need to tell someone and I'm going to tell Mom, right? I'm going to tell Dad and tell whoever.
Hilary: That is the thing I think I will take from this podcast that I love more than anything else, and I think that's important for listeners to remember. Whether you agree or disagree with what is happening, this is an opportunity to celebrate the step that your child has taken to communicate with you about something that's that may be hard to communicate about, and I love that. I love that we can still celebrate that we have that connection with our child.
Devin: Yes, absolutely.
Jen: Created a safe space.
Devin: And I think I also want to acknowledge, to go with what we were talking about before. An important thing that I think parents, once we get through, there's a lot of processing, Jen, I want to come back to what you were talking about to at some point. But you know, each parent's going to go through their own thing. It's going to be different depending on how you grew up, what your experiences have been of this community, what you believe. And I think that some kids take a really long time because they're really scared of what you're going to do. I want to acknowledge that suicide rates for LGBTQ individuals are extremely high. As many as 40 percent of LGBTQ individuals, particularly transgender and nonbinary individuals, will attempt suicide at least once in their life. And most LGBTQ folks will experience suicidal ideation at some point in their lives. And once they've attempted once, their likelihood to attempt again is really high. That's true for anyone who has attempted. And most of that has to do with a perception of marginalization, real or perceived, right? We know as kids when we were younger, it doesn't really matter if it's real or perceived, it's real. It's in us. We experience it. It's huge, right? When we feel like we don't belong, we feel like we're not accepted. With the LGBTQ community, that's often true. Right? That they aren't excepted. So, to bring that acknowledgement, that disclosure, to the people who matter the most to you, who are in charge of you, who take care of you, provide for you, love you. All these thing, is the scariest thing you can do. LGBTQ homelessness is also really, really high, especially in the state of Utah. I think they, I like the number 40. I know I have data somewhere, and it changes every year and it's hard to track homelessness. But I think LGBTQ youth make up about 40 percent of the homeless population. Yes. Of homeless youth. It might be higher like it's and that is because of parental rejection. Most of the time.
Jen: So, it’s the parent kicking them out of the house? I really don't understand that.
Devin: But if you grow up in a community where that's the case and you know that. Coming and telling your parent that, oh my gosh, that's horrifying, that's terrifying, right? That adds a new layer to the vulnerability, even if in your life, both of you sound very accepting and wonderful and creating hard conversations, right? I mean, you're in charge of a parenting podcast. I hope that you've got some pretty good skills. But even like if one of you, one of your kids, comes out much later in life and they're like, I was scared, right? You're probably going to feel hurt or feel like, Oh, what did I do wrong? But think about it. It's not just you, OK, you can do a lot. Parents can do so much, and I'm going to get into that. But, it's not just you that's affecting this, it's what happened when their best friend came out. But you know what happened when the neighbor kid came out. What did their church say? What did? They're paying attention. They're paying attention. So that's something that happens. That's back to strategy, right? What is going to keep them safe? What is going to keep him loved? Even if it's not a whole authentic love? It's better than nothing. They're really scared of losing that.
Hilary: Yeah. So, do you notice, statistically speaking, when these teens come out, do they tend to come out to their friends first over parents or parents first? Do you see a trend at all?
Devin: I don't see a whole lot of patterns, I think it really depends. I think parents are often first because they're usually the most trusted or the most important. But sometimes a lot of the youth that I know will explore a lot of their friends first. Right? You know, try that out there first, but it's also scary in social situations. I know many kids who have been outed by coming out at school or coming out to friends or teachers, and then someone outing them to their parents or to someone who's not safe. Right? So, it all comes back down to safety and exploration. Who do they feel safest with? And it's really important, like you said, if you know to have a really serious conversation. Who can I tell? Who can I not? Who is this a secret from? Why is it a secret from them? Because they probably have a good reason. Right? And if not, it's good to talk about it and say, OK, what evidence do we have for that? Or what can we do to help you feel comfortable talking about this? Because there are people who just don't need to know, right? And you might come up with a pact with your kid like, OK, you know, around Aunt Nancy, we're not going to say anything, right? Like or we're going to use this pronoun or, you know, that's our thing for now. And you let me know if that changes, right? But that communication piece is really important. Yeah. So, I don’t know if that kind of answered your question.
Jen: But no, that was great. And I'm glad that you brought up this idea because you know , Jen , you mentioned the uncomfortableness with having this secret and not being able to tell certain people , but we also want to respect them and obviously their experience and their thoughts that there are certain people that they don't want to share this with or that they're not safe to share this with at this point . And so even though it may be awkward for us to keep this secret, it still needs to be kept. I mean, any thoughts on that? Where maybe there are, you know, with it's in the same the family and certainly people know and other people that don't?
Devin: Yeah, yeah. I think that's I'm going to come back to strategy a lot today, but it's kind of fun to create a strategy with your kid to help them feel supported in that and say, OK, what is our strategy going to be, at this barbecue, at this family gathering when I'm at work? You know, how can I talk about you? It really, it comes down to their comfort. It is not your identity. It is not your experience. And it might be hard for you. Absolutely, right? And it can be confusing when maybe they use different pronouns and you're trying to be really affirming and use their correct pronouns. But at work, you need to use that or whatever, right? And you really just have to go at their pace. What are they ready for? And when they're ready, they'll tell you, right? Or you can ask them, but they'll get there eventually, and maybe they won't. But it's all about their safety. Their comfort comes first, and I think all parents can resonate with that. We want our kids to feel safe, to feel comfortable. We want them to be able to be their best selves, right? And if that's because, you know, grandma and grandpa are never going to be nice to you again, or they're going to write you out of the will or like anything like that, and you'd rather just have some good memories with them. Fine? Yeah. You know, what do we need?
Hilary: So, I'm thinking and I hope my words come out, OK. So, I think a lot of times, we get this idea that when a team comes out and almost lifts the burden of having that secret, right? And then things will be OK and everybody will know and life will go on happily. And so, I think sometimes we have situations, where maybe one parent knows and another parent doesn't, and they, like you said, continue to push like just let everybody know and then it will be OK. And I think sometimes there are there are situations where coming out does help to ease some of that stress. And so, as a parent, do you walk a fine line between maybe encouraging your child to be their own authentic self-versus still walking that safety line? And what's the difference with your parents with that?
Devin: Yeah, absolutely. It's tricky, right? I think that it is really challenging, you want them to be able to explore and express themselves, right? But you don't know necessarily what they're encountering if they wear that to school or if they use that pronoun or so, it can be really tricky. I think, I would encourage you to get support as well. Like parents really need support. And I think remembering that you're not alone either and that every kid has their own journey is important. And talking to other parents and learning about other kids’ journeys and hearing firsthand, like there's a lot of YouTube videos out there that I love. There's a lot of parent groups online. There's articles and there's all kinds of stuff out there if you start looking that can help you understand it a little bit better and know that this is a really unique journey for every kid, for every individual and at the same time, this is something that might really alleviate something for them. It might, and if they've expressed that or you've talked about it, and they really want to kind of release that burden come what may. That's great. And also, to help them feel prepared for it. You know, what do you need from me like you said, Jen, right? To be able to do that to feel comfortable with that? But are you as the parent especially ready to be with them through? Maybe not so good reactions or difficult situations. Right? But those are likely to come up, too. And I hope our earlier conversation about it being really, in this society, it's going it, they're going to come out all over and over and over again. It doesn't relieve the burden, right, because you can't tell just by looking at someone if they're LGBTQ , right? And we all make assumptions and we think we can or, you know, there's some missteps we make, but you can't tell. And until someone discloses to you that information, we tend to assume, right? We tend to assume that they're heteronormative versus normative. So, yeah, I would just I would keep those things in mind and find the support that you need to that you're trying to navigate this too, and it is tricky to your point, right?
Hilary: Yes. So. I know we're running short on time, but
Devin: I'll come back any time.
Hilary: You know, we were just talking in our last recorded podcast about protective factors, and now we know there's a lot of risk factors as well for our LGBTQ community. But what are some of the protective factors that we can offer as parents, as community members to help this community?
Devin: Yeah, absolutely. I think we're all pretty aware of risk factors, right? And most parents I work with, that's the only thing on their mind, right? Oh my gosh, what they're going to face, and I'm so worried for them, and that's really scary, right? Parents get really worried for good reason. They care a lot about what's going to happen to their kids, right? A lot of the fear when they come out is mostly based on, how are people going to treat you now? Right? That's really scary for them. So, a big protective factor is to be their first ally. Right? Or a big ally in their life and advocate for them. Protective factors. So, we know from the family acceptance project that family acceptance is one of the biggest factors for reducing suicide and reducing things like drug use. Risk factors in this study included things like drug use, unprotected sex or, you know, LGBTQ folks, especially in Utah, may not even know how to have sex or how to be safe about it or anything like that , what it looks like for them. So, you know, that can increase it’s risk when you don't know what you're doing and or don't have a place to go to learn about that. So, parents being able to have those conversations to be a safe place to be supportive really reduces those risk factors, reduces their risk for suicide for mental health complications and distress, right? And a lot of that is because of their environment. Sometimes we think that LGBTQ folks are predisposed, are bound, because of their identity to have depression, anxiety. Any of that. But really, what we find is that a lot of that is separate and, you know, very much genetic. We know how much it can pass through families and also very environmental. Yes. Like, see what happens when that kid's in a different school or a different environment or has accepting parents? A lot of things improve, right? We also know, I have a statistic somewhere, it's on The Trevor Project. I've looked for it. It's really hard to find, but I believe again, a 40 percent number, are you ready? That parental acceptance can reduce the risk of suicide by 40 percent. That's not a small number, right? And that's huge, huge, huge, huge. And what parental acceptance looks like, right? What does that mean? It means using affirming language. It means helping them find communities where they're accepted, helping, learning right? Like you said, learning more and correcting your mistakes and just kind of trying to understand. It means asking permission and exploring things with them to what they're comfortable with, it means showing up as an ally and an advocate. It means fighting back when they need you to. It means using correct language, I think I already said but that's a huge one. It can look as bold as going to a pride parade and hanging a flag from your front yard to as small as wearing a rainbow wristband and talking to your colleagues at work or standing up in a conversation, right? It can look like whatever. But letting your kid know through action that you care. Yeah, right? Not just saying, I love you but... or I love you if... or I love you anyway, right? No, love is what do we call that? Unconditional, yes, love is unconditional. That was not a test, it was me forgetting. Yes. Love is unconditional, right? So why do we put conditions on LGBTQ folks with their love? Right? What they're allowed to have? So, love is unconditional, and we show that through action. Right? Yeah. Is that helpful?
Hilary: Yes, incredibly.
Devin: A big thing. Also, I just want to add to that is. Pay attention to, like you said, media is important, what media do you consume? Are you listening to this podcast? Are you going to a support group? Are you watching shows with LGBTQ characters? Is your Instagram feed full of straight white couples? Have you ever seen BIPOC or Q BIPOC? BIPOC means black indigenous people of color, queer, black, indigenous people of color. Have you ever seen that love, what that looks like? Have you ever seen couples like that? Have your kids, right? What music do you listen to? What places do you shop at? What media do you consume? All of those things, they're paying attention. OK. They're paying attention. So, thinking about even like, you know, when your kid is expressing, you know, Oh, boys are gross, you know, you're like, Oh , well, you know, boys are just whatever, right? Like, what are you assuming about who they might love or what they might be interested in, right? Oh, when are you going to get a girlfriend right or what are you going to get married? Or we're so excited for you to have babies, right? There's lots of issues with that. There's many, many ways to be an adult and to have a family. But thinking about what language am I using in my home? Am I expecting this, right? And I think that's what parents get really confused. Like, I've always been affirming. I've always talked about the LGBTQ community or, you know, I've been to pride once or something like that, right? But they don't think about, OK, well, if your kid is only ever heard you talk about them in a heteronormative versus normative sense in a way like, you're going to get married, you're going to have kids, in that way, how do they know that anything else is OK? Right? So that language piece is really, really important.
Hilary: My eyes are opened. This is so helpful. This is truly so helpful. And, you know, it's interesting because I feel like, my education, I'm still figuring things out with the LGBTQ community, but the thing that I have found working with this community, is that we will make mistakes and it's okay and they're so wonderful. Yes, yes. To help us out in what we can say and what's helpful and what's not helpful and just the sweetest individuals that you will find. And I sometimes I'm really apprehensive about saying the wrong things or doing the wrong things or causing hurt feelings. And what I have found is that, wonderful, wonderful people. And just adjust our, you know, whose goal it is just to provide education and insight and love and, you know, and inclusion, and that's what that's what they're doing.
Devin: I also want to highlight, though, because that's huge and that's a big takeaway. I see parents take it all the time, and that's really important to them. Yeah, I often preface trainings and stuff with like, you are not going to leave this conversation an expert. I am not an expert, OK? I gave you all this stuff at the beginning to give you what I am good at, but every time I talk about this, I learn something new And my conversation is going to be different, and I've learned better and more things I'm going to say, right? If I listen to this two years from now, I’m going to be like, Oh my gosh.
Hilary: As will we.
Devin: I’ve learned so much from now. But that's pivotal to believe I can make mistakes. I'm going to. I'm bound to, and I can recover from them and our relationship can recover from them and we're going to be OK. And I think, really, really, really this is a hard homework piece for anyone listening for you all digging into what is that fear about? Where does that fear come from? Who is that fear for? Because I fear that all the time, right, I'm I used to be terrified of making a mistake. I mean, I'm talking about this to people, for my job, for God's sake. Like, this is what I do. And it's scary for me to make a mistake, right? And I'm representing this community. That's a really vulnerable place to be right. They're fully capable of speaking for themselves. And I'm here trying to make some space to take that burden off, but also not trying to make it worse. Right? And I have to look at that all the time and say, who am I scared for? Am I scared because of what people are going to think about me and how they're going to perceive me? That's a me problem. Or am I scared that I'm going to misrepresent someone and I'm going to hurt someone? And I want to be better and not do that? That's a different fear, right? That's something I can deal with and say, How can I correct that? I can learn more. I can apologize. I can own up to it, right? I can acknowledge it and do better. If it's fear of how people perceive me, I can't control that. And also, it's going to keep me from connection. It's going to keep me from trying.
Hilary: She's amazing.
Jen: I also think my 16-year-old is amazing, she has wisdom. I don't know she came to us one day and she's like, I know you believe this way. You guys go to church all along and she's like, That is fine. That’s your belief; this is my belief. And I said, OK, so what do you need from us? She's like, If I choose to marry a woman, I just want you to come to my wedding and be accepted. And I’m like, done. Yeah. And she's like, I'm not going to change your opinions or your beliefs, but I don't want you to try to change mine either, you know. Just tell us what you need from us, and we'll provide it as best as we can. And of course, we would be at a wedding for you.
Devin: Absolutely, I love that. Brave kid, you got there.
Jen: You talk about safety and things like that she just got a car because she just turned 16 and her biological mom got her a car and she has a rainbow unicorn. And then she has other rainbow things. And I just fear that someone is going to do something to her vehicle because they don't. So, I do worry about those kinds of things, but she's like, Hmm, if it happens, it happens. And I go, Oh my goodness, ok, I love you, be safe, here’s some bubble wrap.
Devin: Yeah, that's why it's so important for you to be able to talk about that with someone, right? Because our kids are often like, they got this. Right? They're going to be OK. And they need to know that you believe they're going to be OK. Right? So, you've got to dig into that too and find a place where you can get supported and process that because something you said way before is something I want to really leave people with. And tying into what you said there, too, is. You've got to get to a place where you can imagine a future that is just as bright and beautiful for them as any of your other kids, you know? Their future doesn't have to look any different. It might be harder, might be more diverse, might be a different path than you anticipated, but they really want to believe that you want goodness for them, that you see hope for them, that you believe that they have a bright future ahead of them, right? And you'll help them get there. Right? So, whatever is in the way of that for you, that's OK, that's going to come up like, Oh my gosh. Like I said, there's a reason I started a parent group. Parents have a lot to process that's so heavy and do it, do the work, do the work because the hope that you'll get at the end of it is so worth it. Seeing that beautiful future for them and then seeing them achieve it and live it. Nothing like it.
Jen: Well, I want to thank you so much, Devin, for coming today and you. I think definitely we need to have more conversations about this and definitely things that we can do. I mean this is just a small chunk. Oh yeah, definitely. Hopefully we can have you back and talk about another chunk and build off that.
Hilary: We'll do it piece by piece. Yes.
Jen: So, thank you so much and thank you listeners for tuning in today, and we will see you next week. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Parents' Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. JenDaly-TheFamilyPlace. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is thefamilyplaceutah.org if you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes. We'd love to see you there.
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