Understanding Shame

Do you know what Shame is and how it affects you and those around you? Shame is a common response we all experience in our lives. Understanding shame can help us in all parenting, working, and learning how to better help ourselves. Reece, the Clinical Director at the Family Place is here to guide is through the stages of shame and how it works.

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Jen: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast with Hilary and Jen.

Nicole: Welcome to the Parents Place podcast. Hilary is out enjoying her kids so I'm here filling in for her. I'm Nicole, and we have our lovely guest with us, Reese. He's one of our therapists at the Family Place, so I'll let him introduce himself a little bit. And yeah, take it away, Reese.

Reese: All right. My name is Reese Nielsen and I am the clinical director at the Family Place. And I come from a background of marriage and family therapy and mental health counseling. And have experience in mental health crisis and a lot of varieties of therapy. So, sort of like in home and outpatient models of different kinds. And so, it's been a fun career path.

Nicole: That's awesome.

Reese: Yeah, it's been interesting.

Jen: Career paths are always interesting.

Reese: Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's been very interesting so.

Nicole: What kind of education did you have to get for that.

Reese: So, I have a pHD in Marriage and Family Therapy from Virginia Tech, and then a Masters in Counseling from the University of Alabama at Birmingham, UAB. So good times. Spent six years in Alabama and 13 and a couple different places in Virginia and it's been a great, great time, so yeah.

Jen: Just curiosity, when did you get your bachelors in?

Reese: Family and human development right here at Utah State.

Jen: Ohh alright.

Reese: Been it's been an interesting journey so.

Jen: So to take today, you're going to tell us a little bit or educate us, I guess is a better word for now this is Shame. And this is something I've been trying for a long time, Reese to get you on, so I'm grateful that you're here today to talk to us about Shame.

Reese: Trying to remember back about why you were even interested in that, why you even though I had anything to say on that. So were you sitting in on a conference when I talked on this or something because I'm like what, All I know is I have a lot of shame, and so I can speak to it personally. That's the way it goes right.

Jen: Well, I think we all have shame.

Reese: Yeah. So, and I think parents have shame and guilt over parenting and but I think as humans we do. And I've been grateful for what I've learned over the years. You might have had conversations and learned about different trauma responses, fight or flight is a common term. Now fight, flight, or freeze. But we don't talk as much about what happens after that the brain has been flooded with that trauma response. And then what follows is often a shame cycle, so a down jag of mood and energy drop and you feel like you want to go crawl in a hole, feel extremely exhausted. You want to withdraw from everything and everybody just feel bad you think negative thoughts. And that's a normal part of that, that brain process. So that's what I wanted to talk about today little bit.

Nicole: I Definitely could use this this week especially. I had to make a bunch of phone calls and oh, they're just it's hard. And then you don't say things, right. And you're just like, why did I say that? What did I do and then yeah, you do get into a spiral like you were talking about. So yeah, I'm excited to learn more about shame. Yeah.

Reese: It's interesting and I, there's a concept here that I got from, Janina Fisher. So, it's not my own, but I feel like, you know, we've tried to expand on it and use it in services here. And I know it's been helpful to me personally as well as with the people we're serving. But this concept goes like this, OK, so we're familiar with fight or flight, right? So, if you think of that as an upward pressure. I know nobody can see you, but I've got my I've got one fist pressing up and one fist pressing down. OK and so fight or flight? Or the sympathetic response is like an upward pressure. We feel it like pressure, anger and anxiety. But in mammals and then, more especially in humans, there is compensating response in the brain that basically keeps the lid on. It's this kind of a suppressing response, right? In a healthy scenario, that's a relaxation response. You feel some anxiety. You go do some things to regulate. And you feel more, you feel more calm, right? So that parasympathetic response. But when anxiety and anger are very high. Then that response can be very it's a counter response that can also be very strong. So, when anxiety and anger pass, then what happens?

Jen:: Whatever the that, the downward pressure there we go, goes lower.

Reese: This is your mood into the ground, right?

Jen: Yes, you go, you spiral down, yeah.

Reese: Right. So right now for instance, I'm feeling anxiety, but once this is over, I'm certain I'll feel shame.

Nicole: Ohh I hope not.

Reese: No, I'm saying I will and you might. And you might well, Jen. She's been doing this a while, so it's more habitual the memory center of the brain. It's been tracking this for a while for Jen so, she knows it's not threat. Nicole's brain might be a little uncertain and you might look and be like I don’t know

Nicole: Why did I say that?

Reese: Exactly right. So that's the way it works and that's there's some good reasons why we have that response so.

Nicole: Yeah. Are there like, what are the reasons that we feel shame. What yeah.

Reese: That's a good question. OK, so picture, do you have dogs?

Nicole: Yes, we love dogs.

Reese: OK, you trained your dogs. Or you just let them, Or I guess you try to train.

Nicole: I mean, I like.

Jen: Ehhh you try

Reese: Have you ever scolded your dog?

Nicole: Yes

Reese: OK, what does the dog?

Nicole: And puts her tail between her legs and legs away.

Jen: Runs away

Reese: Flitches away. OK, there you go. Yeah, runs away. OK, that's right. Michael crawled under the bed, whining, very sad. All right, that's the shame response. And so, what, what do you what do you think? Why would a dog do that to some more simplistic brain process than a human not conscious thought involved here? Probably we don't really know what dogs are thinking but why do you think that a dog would have that response when you scold them. How do you feel, first, how do you feel towards the dog? When you see him, like, slinking away, whining, drooping the dog.

Nicole: Ohh I feel so bad, yeah. I feel bad for being mean.

Jen: Well, the first thing that popped into my mind was the dog has had experiences and so. That's their natural response when we get like that tone of voice that changes because we all have dog voice. So, I think it's, I don't know. That's what I thought first, but then I feel bad after I do it because I'm like you're a dog, you're so cute.

Reese: Now, isn't that interesting that you would feel bad for scolding the dog, right?

Nicole: Yeah, I guess that is interesting, isn't it?

Reese: Isn't that a beautiful safety mechanism for the dog? If I just drop my head and tuck my tail in one and go slink away than the threat of being scolded is reduced and eliminated, right? And might even come.

Nicole: So they're manipulating us.

Reese: Well, we say, we just want to say everybody's attached, right? So we all influence each other. And it might even elicit enough of a sympathetic response, a sympathy response. I don't mean sympathetic like the brain, but enough sympathy or pity that you'll come and console and assure right. So it's not a lot different in humans or might not be this is theory, right? But that is at least one explanation of why we have a shame response. So that that whether it's a child or an adult, that human having a shame response other humans, it sends a signal to other humans. Oh, man. I'm sorry. Come like care of you, console you comfort you, right?

Jen: So interesting.

Nicole: Because that is what happened the other day when they made that horrible phone call and everyone in the office heard and then they were like, “it's OK. It wasn't that bad” but it was.

Reese: Ohh man sorry that's right. It elicits that response.

Nicole: But they were consoling me. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

Reese: If there is an attachment. So, it may not elicit it very strongly in someone you don’t have an attachment with. They might be like, I don't really know her.

Jen: But that makes me think about parents who don't have an attachment to their child. Then they may not feel that response. Which then just creates more fear, whatever with that child.

Reese: Yeah, let's talk about on a, on a healthy scenario. First, if you have a child, then that has is experiencing a shame response. OK, then what might it be designed to do towards parents?

Nicole: For us to come in and comfort them and yeah, tell them it was going to be ok.

Reese: How does that feel to the child?

Nicole: Good, hopefully.

Reese: Yeah. So this is a, this is a normal and relatively healthy brain process. I'm feeling shame usually the fight or flight period of time feels very unsafe for all involved. That brain feels very unsafe, so it's the same response kicks in and if fight or flight drops and shame response brings in that lower mood, then the first need that that person has is safety. Bring me safe. Bring me comfort. Bring me safety. Come around me. Are we OK or not? And so, then we'll do the inverse, so a parent that's having a shame response. Then how might a child react?

Nicole: I think a lot of times in the same way like they come and try and comfort you right.

Reese: So, you have kids? This never happened where you were feeling real bad. Or maybe you're crying and your kids come and comfort you.

Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, it has happened.

Reese: OK. Was that was that? Was that a good thing or bad thing for your sense of attachment with them.

Nicole: It was good. I think it definitely reflected back to me what I do for them. They were able to kind of do the same thing so.

Reese: So, it's not a, it's not an abnormal thing or even unhealthy thing. Now these shame cycles and responses is part of what brings us together. So you seen the movie inside out?

Nicole: Yeah

Jen: No,

Reese: No! Jen you haven’t?

Jen: I am not a big, animated movie person.

Nicole: We need to have a Movie day. Oh my gosh it is so good! It will have you laughing, it will have you crying

Jen: I do love Bing bong.

Nicole Bing bong is good.

Reese: So OK, but who saves the day? In a way? Sadness. Right? Why? How?

Jen: She validates and she listens and.

Reese: She's simply responding. Now we can't respond to a person's shame response if we haven't felt that.

Nicole: Right.

Reese: Does that make sense?

Nicole: Yeah, we need to have empathy.

Reese: So yeah. That shame response creates if we've experienced it, then we're capable of having empathy with someone else that is experiencing. So, it empowers us to be capable of responding in a consoling way. And that can be very, very helpful for people going through it, right, including ourselves. So this can happen in parent partners. So marriage couples, right? Yeah ones down the other moves to console right? OK. Where do you think it might go awry?

Nicole: Well, I can think of lots of scenarios where it would go awry. Maybe if the person the other person doesn't come to console or you know.

Reese: You feel real crappy by yourself. Real low, real bad ,you say something? Maybe that indicates to somebody around you some a loved one that you're feeling real low. And they're like and just go on about their merry way or say something like, just get over it.

Nicole: Oh, that hurts.

Jen: Put your big girl pants on and. Yeah, move on. Yeah.

Reese: The struggle. That responds does not work just like the dog. Hung his head and left his. Tail and still got scolding more.

Nicole: Right, right. Yeah, that's not a good response.

Reese: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that can reinforce and in scenarios where there's been a lot of like less developed attachment or less healthy formations of attachments, I guess you might say then the same cycle doesn't get kind of the shame reinforcement of consolation come out of it. Cycle so it can perpetuate so a person can live with ongoing feelings of shame that don't. They don't, really resolve out they've never they've never had a pattern of consistent nurturing responses. So yes, yeah.

Nicole: So, if shame is something that's supposed to signal to other people, but like, hey, I need comfort, I need safety and they don't find that in that person. How do they get out of that cycle?

Reese: Well, yeah. So that's a great question and we know that we're largely motivated on an emotional level and a lot of that is based on our attachments to others, so not finding that in one will over time, this all happens anyway, so we will miss plenty of times when someone around us was really down. So, it's not like one and done. But if there’s a pattern that where that the person consistently doesn't respond when I'm feeling low that I will eventually move away from that person, I'll find I'll look for other sources or options.

Nicole: Right.

Reese: Sort of like an Inside Out where Joy just couldn't grasp what was happening. Just get always. Well, you know, it's like, well, eventually you just kind of can't connect with that.

Nicole: Yeah, like that clip that you were playing the other day in the meeting was about Bing Bong and he was sad. And Joy kept saying, come on, let's go. Everything is happy. And then Sadness came and just sat with him and said looks like you're feeling really sad. Or whatever. So we need, so we will eventually keep finding someone.

Reese: Yes, we'll have to. We'll be driven by that. The so the herein lies the difference between a dog and a human. We'll begin to generate a lot of conscious thought and those thoughts may take the form of how crappy we are. And it can certainly take the thoughts of how crappy the other person is for not consoling us. So, we might feel like other person has judged this or been invalidating or been terrible toward us. And we might have all these negative thoughts about ourselves, because shame itself is, is, and is simply a negative vortex, right? So, it has its function, but in that place and in that space our thoughts are just consumed. They're just a very negative mix. In the therapy side. I know we walk people through, but like during that period of time, if you can recognize when you're in that state, you can allow your thoughts through mindfulness exercises you might have walked through those. But, whatever you don't trust your thinking makes sense. It's not a great time. The thinking you're thinking during that time isn't any. It will always be negative right so check your thinking, I mean, you can, you can let it go is what we would say just let it flow along, but 20-30 minutes later two or three hours later, whatever it is. You're going to feel differently and you got to think differently.

Nicole: Right. Kind of reminds me of Brene Brown when she says the story I'm telling myself is that part of shame. Like when you tell yourself different stories and.

Reese: Yeah, definitely, yeah. And it could be helpful to challenge that narrative in the moment, but a lot of people find that they invalidate themselves, if that makes sense. They're just trying to do that same thing that Joy was doing inside, after all, Inside Out to all the brain, these are different people. And so you're just doing that towards yourself. I'll just get over it, just be, you know, tell yourself a positive narrative and then the person can't, they can't come through the process of the emotional process. Where it would flow naturally. So, we just maybe add if you can recognize when you're in that state. The key is the meaning of it. So when you feel bad after an encounter with your kids there, Nicole.

Nicole: OK. Yep. We're going to do some therapy here today.

Reese: I shouldn’t put you on the spot, but what are? Some of the meanings you make. Some of the thoughts you have?

Nicole: Think like after a negative encounter. Oh man, do we have time for this? I'm a terrible mom. I should spend more time with them. I need to read more with them. I need to do, I need, need, need. I should, should, should.

Reese: Yeah. So those meanings are the are the trap a little bit. And catch us in that moment and it's certainly OK to thank him as long as we recognize that's just my thoughts based on this mood. But what we would offer, what I would say is like OK, if you can recognize you're in that state, then apply this meaning it's an emotion. It's my brain and it's an emotion and it's how I feel. That's the meaning. That's the meaning. And the other things are my thoughts. That's what I'm thinking right now while I'm down here in this black hole it doesn't mean that they’re true right? It doesn’t matter right. So, we'll talk about that for a second. But that's important. I think a lot of parents do that. A lot of humans do that. Because there's a part of the brain that analyzes that like if something went wrong and feels bad, then its job is to scan what went wrong.

Nicole: That makes sense. We all become data analysts.

Reese: Is that not a problem. It's all fine. That's a necessary part of the brain, right? When we're in that mood, so we call it mood-based reasoning. Our thoughts will follow whatever that mood is. But when you're in a happy mood. You don't think those thoughts, right? So it's scanning saying ohh this, these are there, must be this, this, this, this, this, this wrong. Right. But what's really happening is you're in a negative mood. In a negative state, that's what's happening. Not that you're a bad mom. Not that you didn't spend enough time with them. Not that you're none of that. Right. You're in a negative state, an emotional state. That is what it is,

Jen: So, then your brain can't think in a positive state

Reese: Yeah, you just, I mean you can try and it does help somewhat you know to send self-compassionate messages to yourself during that time to kind of poke holes. In the dark so it's not so dark.

Nicole: It's like, it's kind of like with kids when they're having a big emotion. You're not going to coach them through it in that moment. You have to wait for them to calm down and then come back to themselves and then you coach. So it sounds like that's what we need to do with ourselves too.

Reese: And as your kids get into that shame state and have negative self thoughts. Then you can reassure, them that they're OK. Yeah, right. OK, it's fine. OK, we'll just we'll. Get through it. Yeah, right.

Jen: Right now what happens because I'm just having. These thoughts run through my mind of like words of affirmation for me. Don't do. Yeah, because I always. I guess it would be my experience of words, of affirmation. They can just be words to me, action is a lot louder than what they're saying, and because I have in times in my life, those words have been hurtful or not true. So how do you help? If you're if we're supposed to coach ourselves and be self-compassionate, but I can't even handle words of affirmation. See now it’s ‘my turn for therapy.

Nicole: See Reese, we're so glad you're here. We need therapy!

Jen: How do you do that then?

Reese: So the key to this is putting when we put on that meaning that it's a, it's a, mood. It's a state. It's an emotion. It's a little bit like mindfulness or acceptance. In that regard, that's the meaning. So, it can come with a whole package of acceptance of self. Including negative thoughts and that you're in a negative state. It's like, well, that's how I'm feeling that's what I'm thinking. So, with words of affirmation, there's to, to borrow language from mind body bridging, there's a fixer right that wants to fix it. That part of the brain that drives, like, make it better, make it better, make it better. We don't like to stay there. There's a reason we don't like the shame state. It's like the capstone of our lower brain processes to say don't ever do that again, whatever the heck that was, don't do that. But the lower brain is very underdeveloped. It's not conscious and it's not reflective and it doesn't have a lot of. I mean, it had a lot of nuance. In its processes, but it's not farsighted, and it's not it's not looking at identity or whatever. It's just saying, what made us feel that way? Don't do that again. So, words of affirmation during that time could be driven by the this part of the brain that wants to fix it make it better, right? But that part of it when we're when we're fully in shame then it doesn't matter it anything positive that comes through will be tainted, like has tar on it. So, this is a dilemma for people trying to come to console as well. They might say kind words. The person like it's just, but I'm just a crappy person. Right. And so, then that person trying to console can feel frustrated or distressed or does that make sense? But if we put the meaning on it correctly, so to speak, but just a meaning, it's an emotion. Do emotions need fixed?

Nicole: No, We just need to feel love.

Reese: And why try to fix them?

Nicole: I don't know.

Jen: Because we're a bunch of fixers, we're uncomfortable.

Nicole: So, it sounds like you're saying like just treat it like any other emotion, like let it move through you and don't put shame on top of shame. Don't feel shame for feeling the way that you are feeling.

Reese: That's the worst, man.

Nicole: Ohh I do it, I do it.

Reese: That’s the worst! There's nothing like the shame for feeling shame, and then you feel shame for feeling shame, shame and.

Nicole: It's just a spiral, yeah.

Reese: Like the bathtub drain, just let it go down

Nicole: Yeah, definitely.

Reese: OK, so when you're hungry, what do? You do.

Nicole: I eat.

Reese: OK. When you're tired, what do you do?

Nicole: Hopefully sleep, hopefully.

Reese: That’s what you should do right?

Jen: I get grumpy, with both of those. Hungry or sleep.

Nicole: I was hangry last night. Yep.

Reese: Yeah. So it's not like you don't do anything in response to shame. That's just the meaning you put on it. But when you're hungry, you ever mistake, have you ever mistaken? You're feeling grumpy. And you think it's because something bad happened at work or something? And then if once you stop and finally figure it out, it's because you haven't eaten lunch. OK. Yeah so shame is a little bit like that. It's a brain process. There's something happening in the brain, so we tend to think that thoughts help the brain, but they kind of do kind of, don't. They have their place but there's a lot more you can do. For a brain than just thinking about it. After all our thoughts, we get caught in the bathtub drain, right? Don’t we go. So, some simple things you can do are you know are there we talked about. Like the same kind of coping mechanisms help with fight or flight. It's all in that same part of the brain. So, a simple step outside for a few deep breaths. Quick phone call to somebody or go say hi to somebody, you have to talk about what's going on you just making the connection with somebody that isn't in the pit with you. Eating if you haven't eaten, then that can drive that mood, right? So, there's plenty you can do in response that even deepening your breath, just like you would with anxiety just deep in your breath you'll feel, likely to feel some relief from the shame spots. Does that makes sense? So, there's still plenty you can do

Nicole: OK so. I love those suggestions. Yeah, those are some of the things that I have to do every day because,

Reese: Yeah, no kidding.

Nicole: Oh man, I think I experience shame every day

Reese: We should, yeah.

Jen: It's normal, it's normal.

Nicole: And the amount that I talk, it happens.

Reese: And then you feel bad talking and you know the way it goes right, but it's a normal part of it, and there should be a healthy balance. So, we'll take the one side when it gets problematic, when there's too much. So, shame moods that last a long time. I mean, there's depression, right? We just the thoughts are relatively consistently negative thoughts of death, thoughts of hopelessness. You know, just everything is bleak, sometimes very, sometimes very simply that's brain chemistry at work. There's simply not, there's plenty of activity in the part of the brain that says something's wrong, and there's not much going on in the part of the brain that says things are OK or better. So, medications can help with that and therapy can help with that. PTSD can have downward jags of mood states and that could be really challenging. Suicidality really oftentimes flows out of this shame cycle. So, think of the fix it part of the brain, right? So, if you're in that shame cycle, then or in that mood, then sometimes there's this problematic meaning from the fixer side of the brain that says you'd be better off dead. That makes sense. Yeah. So, I can drive some of that. If it's possible to set that aside so it's just an emotional feeling now for a while, go get some help go talk to your mom, cousin, whatever, whatever's positive. Make little connection.

Jen: Just, a book I'm listening to made me think of like veterans and in that shame cycle when they come home and how suicide is so that little thing just slivers on in there. How much they need support and help and all that kind of thing.

Reese: It's a real challenge. You know, for veterans, there's a lot of the military experience can be essentially kind of living on edge like a little fight or flight, generally speaking. So, coming off of that when it's been prolonged for years can be very disorienting, right? And that that, you know, we talked about the upward downward. Once that upward force, that's been kind of keeping you going on, the adrenaline and the and the command and the whatever has dropped, then a lot of times that mood is lower it's challenging.

Nicole: Yeah.

Jen: I would think it would be the same for people who have experienced trauma.

Reese: Yes, there's a real challenge because we don't wear shame on our face very well. It seems just you know, if you took a person that's sitting there listening to music on their on their earbuds versus a person that's sitting there with your buds in their ears, but in a shame response would be really hard to tell. Does that makes sense? It's a masking response at the human level. We're not like the dog. That's just going to automatically. Does that make sense?

Nicole: I don't know. I do the home alone face a lot like Oh my gosh.

Reese: There you go. So learning when we are there and what we tend to do. Super helpful in learning how then to speak up about it be like man, I'm in a crappy spot even sometimes just saying it and somebody acknowledging, oh man, I'm sorry, can begin like, OK, let's all get through it.

Jen: Yeah, that's what I tell my husband all the time. Just validate my feelings. Don't defend, don't, don't defend them or try to fix it. Just, just validate. That's all I want.

Reese: Exactly right. That’s what everyone wants, right? Just validate my feelings?

Nicole: So, I've been thinking like, what if somebody is living with somebody who is in a shamed spiral like we are in that bathtub spiral and you know, no amount of positive affirmations or comforting words is getting through to them. What do we do then?

Reese: Yeah, Yeah, right.

Nicole: Because that can be exhausting and almost send you into a shame spiral because you're not fixing it.

Reese: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So this gets in a little a little deeper and when it's when it's a problematic chronic shame state, we're in. Then it can be very, very alluring to place the meaning on it that it's somebody else's responsibility to get us out. Now, truth be told, it may be somebody else's fault that we're in it. Right. So that can bleed over as time goes on into then somebody else needs to, I can't do this myself. So, the trick is that it's not either or. We do know that the number one most powerful factor. For simply feeling better is to make a healthy connection through our attachment. So there is that peace. It can happen really well without that, but it also can't happen just from another person. And this can be really challenging for that support person. A lot of times it takes a team of people that. And at some point the person maybe in the supportive role has to create a meaning around. Because a lot of times the frustration or drain comes in because they're trying to fix it. If I just help and support then they'll come through it and if they can overlay that with a different meaning saying. It's the state they're in even if it's long term, it's the state they're in and learn just how to respond to it overtime without an expectation. Usually unconscious, but without an unconscious expectation. Well, if I do that the person, they'll feel. Better because that is kind of the normal way you can show your kid,10 minutes later, they're the one is the same, right? Everything's fine. But there are times when that's not the case.

Nicole: Right. I've got an almost teenager. Yeah, it's a lot of shame. We're in middle school, we're in the thick of it here.

Jen: 12 and 13 are hard.

Nicole: Man. Yeah. So, I guess I also wanted to ask like, are there things that we should definitely not do when somebody is feeling shame?

Reese: Shame them more. This can happen like a person is like man, I feel so crappy and we can say words like. Well, if you just screwed it up, does that make sense?

Jen: I'm thinking about the, there used to be a big craze on in social media about parents who get mad at their children and then make them hold the sign on the side of the street.

Nicole: Ohh my gosh no.

Jen: Or put a video on social media about smashing their computers and you have to know. Yeah, people you have to know before that whole situation on the side of the street or the smashing of the computer, there had to be words that were not great, that probably put that person into shame and now let me go make you feel shame in front of all these people.

Nicole: Well, that's a prime example.

Reese: Change can be. The hard to tolerate for the other. Person like the parent. And that can actually, one person's shame response can trigger another person's fight or flight.

Nicole: Umm, I do feel that. Because then I'm projecting. Right, like ohh she feels this way. So, I'm a crappy parent. I don't say it out loud, but sometimes.

Reese: Yeah. And is our fight or flight so because of attachments, then it's typically the sign of being attached is one person's emotions affects the other persons emotions on an emotional level. So if we are triggered into a fight or flight state by someone else's shame, we might come out with anger. We might come out with harshness, we might come out with, just fix it this way we might come up with a variety of responses. Right, but recognizing that that's what's going on can be key and believe me, we'll probably. If you're already done it, so it's not like. It's yeah, does that make sense?

Jen: No parent that hasn’t does it.

Nicole: Like if you only practiced your viola more then we wouldn’t be in this situation. Grace, if you’re listening, practice your viola

Reese: So, balancing that like OK, you know, basically biting our tongues around that and keeping our responses in check and modulating our own emotional response. But there is a flip side where you can unintentionally reinforced shame cycles. In a way that then spiral so that. If a child's needs are not met in more direct ways or more open communication. And the path of their brain, like if their brain reads the pattern that the best way to get this need met is to be in shame and talk about how bad I am and how crappy a kid I am or cut myself or you know, cry and whatever it is right then if that's kind of the only time a parent is respond coming with consolation and comfort, then it can in fact reinforce that, like make it a stronger process parent being aware of that can begin comforting, consoling, connecting at other times. Besides, when there's in shame responses and toning it down during a shame response, don't be negative by any means present, but not so responsive. So, the child can learn a little resilient. They'll get through it. It'll change, I mean, it'll change. It's not a guaranteed change when was last time. I mean, have you ever stayed in the same mood more than? 2-3 hours? On a normal day? Except for some extreme moods. We don't stay there. We don't stay there, right? So, it's going to change.

Nicole: That'd be very uncomfortable to stay. Yeah, one of those states.

Reese: So, if a parent can stay present. And just simply tolerate the uncomfortableness. That's perfectly fine. It's acknowledging and but it's not reinforcing of something. It can be accidentally reinforcing of a negative self-esteem as well. If, like I say, I'm such a bad person and you're always like, no, you're not, it's OK. But that's the only time I ever get a positive response from you. Yeah, I'll be like. Ohh man I am just crappy just keep giving me that response. But that's the only I'm getting that need, man, in that attachment.

Nicole: OK. Gotcha.

Reese: So you simply let go of that. More still present. OK, but not like you have to solve it. There's no fixing going on not negative, not antagonistic.

Nicole: Right. Not adding more attention to it is not what I'm getting from that.

Reese: With that being present with attention is a good thing. Overall, they give to anybody reaching out in shame? So acknowledging it is like my eyes could be crabby.

Nicole: But not like overdoing it especially if that's the only time we’re doing that right?

Reese: And you may detect. Their time. To weave that in so.

Jen: Yeah, I'm thinking of a plan if we could just plant no one. I'm just thinking of. If we set up a plan before, when we're in a good state of this is how I'm going to react. Then it's going to be that much easier to do that because you're not having to fly by the seat of your pants of, oh, I'm supposed to be not negative here. It's supposed to be zipping my lips more. But coming up with a plan. Yeah, I'm a planning person when it comes to trying to fix things.

Reese: There you go.

Nicole: It's making me think of childhood child behavior right, like any attention is good attention, if that's what they're wanting. And you know, I don't know if that's kind of the same along the same wavelength as what you were talking about, you know.

Reese: That's right. You just shape that where it's like not so much. Like you said, not overdoing it towards that cycle. That's what you're in, right? If that's what you're finding yourself in.

Nicole: Right. And then maybe me like reinforcing the positives when you're not in shame like we do with kids, you know, like oh, I notice you did this and wow.

Reese: Yeah, yeah. And we'll talk about the flip side, where if the parent is consistently not responding to the same response, so just remembering that that like the kid will simply learn you're not there on an emotional level. When I need that and so they'll that that brain will begin mapping where they can get that. And so I think you know, there are times when kids will get attached to other peers because that peer will and give them that response like they belong because of that dynamic. So being aware that it may not seem important to the parent at all about why in the world would you feel like that. So that's very, that's a thought that would you the parent would have to move past and they will recognize from that child's perspective and respond so.

Nicole: They might get themselves into a bad group or situation or something just looking for that so you wanna be there safe?

Reese: And it does create vulnerabilities for crime victimization for instance. When people are able to spot that that need hasn't been met to fill and fill that need. And a person can be it being drawn toward. And then it does open the door for some of that sometimes. So being aware of that but again, it's not a blame thing. It's just understanding, right? One other problematic pattern that can happen is when so if, if a parent if it's on the one hand if you got a parent that is feeling. If we as parents are feeling shame all the time. Then it's a sign or signal. That brain is not getting what is it need. So might be sleep deprived, overworked, stressed. We might be it might be clinical depression or trauma or something like that. It's time to recognize that and figure out what's neat and do that right. On the flip side, if there's a parent that just really isn't experiencing any shame to all fight or flight, but no shame, response or whatever. Then that parent may have a harder time connecting with. Their child's experience and they have to work extra hard. At connecting with it there is a place in a space for parents to evaluate whether they actually did something wrong, right. Yeah. Well, perfect nothing wrong with acknowledging that right? And if they can evaluate that, what we would say is like evaluate it against your values, not.

Nicole: I love that. We need to have that be the clip, evaluate against your values, not your mood.

Reese: Because again, the shame mood is all about crappy, so value against your values. But if you do recognize you did something contrary to your own values, well then by all means proceed to attempt to repair it. I work with a lot of parents. It's very it's a it's a hard struggle to go apologize to a child. But there's a lot of beneficial things that come from that if you know, in a relatively healthy scenario, again, not shame all the time and apologizing all the time. That might be a different sign of something else.

Nicole: It might be a sign you're Canadian like, yeah. And we just apologize to inanimate objects

Reese: Yeah, there you go. A culture phenomenon. In that case, go back to the child and like make a repair. Like, hey, look, I feel bad about that. That is very strengthening for the child about how. How they can and if you can articulate that this is what I feel like I did wrong and I'm really sorry about that there's no need in that moment to pair that with, and here's what you that's not a great to keep them separated in time so the child can hear the one without the other. Once you have to if you have to address something they. Actually did that you feel like was wrong. Then they're part of the brain about dealing with that and dealing with a parent coming at them with that information is going to be turned on and they're going to hear that.

Jen: It's the but yeah.

Nicole: Right. It negates everything before it.

Reese: So with just what you're identify that you did wrong and how you like to make that right come with that separately and that makes sense. And let that let that process that allows the child to see, oh, you actually can evaluate that and if you did something wrong, it's OK to just go say sorry. See what you can do to figure out. But when parents don't, then it makes it harder for kids.

Jen: Because they don't. Yeah, they don't see that role model.

Reese: Yeah, it’s like no one has ever done that before. Yeah. So, if there's a parent that doesn't really connect with shame very well it might be extra work. A little extra challenging for them to really, but the good news is empathy is pretty empathies are cognitive skill, non emotional skill. You can just climb up. You can just we all have the ability you can think it just sit there and think, what does this seem like from their perspective? You don't have to connect with it on an emotional level very deeply. It'd be nice, sometimes you want to understand those emotions, but at least grasp that and then build on that to be able to that makes sense.

Jen: Yeah, thinking of the stepfamily class activity. I think Sheryl just talked about it, but the two different shoes. Where you stand in their footprints and. OK, this is the situation from their perspective. OK, let me come over to here and see what it is from this perspective, and.

Nicole: We like to play though and mad or what if game in our house. Well, what if they actually feeling this? Or what if they're, you know, just trying to teach the kids to look beyond whatever the behavior is or whatever what was said you.

Reese: There you go. That's great. Yes.

Nicole: I could be in a shame spiral fight now, we don’t know.

Reese: Yep, and this could be a just something add on to that is just that we often hear about suicides that occur after, but they seem so happy with a lot of happy experience, right? So, remember the upward pressure and the downward pressure, right? So, any high emotion states first can seem very positive whatever, and it can feel very positive, right? But you have to come from a big family gathering or party or something, and then you get home. And how do you feel?

Nicole: Exhausted. Oh, man. Talk about Aunt Becky and what she's up to.

Reese: Yeah, yeah, so those are vulnerable times, yeah. That fatigue and that exhaustion can be part of us being part of the overall same process and suicidal thoughts can be part of that. Also made it very challenging to predict because a person can seem mood based, right? It can seem perfectly fine not me. So, it's made prediction anything ahead of time, it's a little bit challenging.

Jen: We're good at putting masks on.

Reese: Even to ourselves. I'm saying it's the state. We're in we really were happy. Well, it really was a good time stop feeling it. Learning to just tolerate our emotions without acting on them like during shame, it's just not it's just not a great time to make in any real decisions, especially life or death. Just look, yeah.

Nicole: I think my favorite part about, you know, talking with you today has been, you know, putting a meaning with it, which is like saying, you know, this is how I'm feeling. That's OK, you know.

Reese: That's the move.

Nicole: Because we'll just. Yeah, we'll move through it.

Reese: It's an emotion.

Jen: It will end.

Reese: And some things are much bigger than others when they hit you like a Wrecking Ball. So it's not going to end in two hours, but the average for just the daily going on, it's about 20 minutes. Your brain will shift gears and you'll be in a different mood state. Generally, off of any of that lower brain, so fight or flight might be about 20 minutes on average. Same cycle that long and it kind of taper. But there are times when it's just much bigger and it is going to be quite challenging to just get through but research after research shows if you. If you can hang on and be all right, then things do change for the better. We do. We do get post traumatic growth. There are times when that gets stunted and it's time to maybe get some therapy from, you know, for PTSD. You know the resilience is in there, it's just a matter of going into it or letting it do its thing.

Nicole: Yeah, so, so the Family Place has so many services that can help with this, right? What are some things like if we need help getting through those 20 minutes, let's say something just we are in a really bad spot. And you know, we really need help hanging on for 20 minutes while our brain regulates to get us through that shame. What can what can our listeners do? Or, you know, services that we provide or hotlines?

Reese: Yep, they're definitely community resources. I'm going to put a plug in for can you figure out, a positive family member or friend. It's usually more accessible. And just positive, you don't have to talk about what's going on or what's on your mind like you know, you have to go spill your problems. And both of you go down the bathtub drain. But just making that contact. And doing things like, you know, taking a minute to walk outside or take some deep breaths or that's the favorite song, but if you'd like to reach out, then I recommend the 988 hotline. Now that we have a national hotline.

Jen: That is just the best thing ever. Yeah.

Reese: It's a great idea, I think it has somebody trained people that know how to take calls when people are in a bad space. So sometimes we find that our family and friends don't know how to respond. So being able to call somebody that has at least. You know, they really want to be in that in that role and they're looking. To help you. And they have some training in that. It's not a bad thing to just use that resource here in Cache Valley and Rich County that you can call the main line at the Family Place and after hours, I think you have to press 1. Or something I don't know and but yes, there's always somebody that can answer that just kind of see what's going on, see how to help you through just for a few minutes and get you connected to maybe a crisis session within a few days or just to deescalate.

Jen: When you're like, if you are that person, that someone is calling if they have some training. What do we offer to provide that training? Mental Health First Aid!

Nicole: That was great.

Jen: It gives you some skills. And some ideas and yeah. Little bit of help of recognizing those things and how to help those people through. That kind of stuff so.

Nicole: And shameless plug, but it's free so.

Jen: It is free.

Reese: Yes, if you take advantage of mental health first aid training. That's awesome.

Nicole: Yeah, it was really good.

Reese: It's been fun.

Jen: Well, thanks so much for coming, Reese.

Reese: And now I'll go feel crappy about how it went

Nicole: ohh stop. It's gonna be so good. It did work. His tail was between his legs. His puppy dog eyes. It worked.

Reese: And I'll say the same. You did great job.

Nicole: Thank you. Thank you. Are there any books that you would recommend for our listeners to read.

Reese: I don't know. I mean, Brené Brown is always good.

Nicole: Yeah. Ohh my home girl.

Reese: I know Janina Fisher has put books out and I really respect her for articulating this. Small classics like the whole brainchild, emotional intelligence. If you really want a deeper dive, you can try. The body keeps the score.

Nicole: Oh, that one is a deep dive.

Jen: It's a long, deep dive, but it is a good one

Nicole: It sends me into a spiral

Reese: So I avoid books that cause me shame since I experience shame anyway, I'm just kidding. But. Yeah, a lot of good books out there, so.

Jen: Well, thank you so much for coming. We appreciate that and I appreciate Nicole coming and being a guest host today.

Nicole: Thank you! Hope they can com back, this is like my interview, right now

Jen: Well, Hilary does like to take summers and go and spend with her family, so might call upon you again.

Nicole: I am here 40 hours a week. Well, you did great. I mean, you should be a regular person on the podcast.

Reese: Thank you for the time, yeah.

Jen: All right. Thank you for coming by and listening today and we hope that you have gained some knowledge and we hope that you can be kind and patient with yourself and we'll see you next week.

Thank you for listening to the Parents Place podcast. If you would like to reach us, you can at parents@thefamilyplaceutah.org or you can reach Jen on Facebook. Jen Daly – The Family Place. Please check out our show notes for any additional information. Our website is TheFamilyPlaceUtah.org if you're interested in any of our upcoming virtual classes. We'd love to see you there.

Subject Resources:

1. Janina Fisher resources: https://janinafisher.com/

2. Brene Brown books: https://brenebrown.com/books-audio/

3. The Body Keeps the Score book: https://a.co/d/2fdRnJe

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